recovery arcs and learning to swoop...

[tuck 0]

let me preface this by saying that i advanced quickly under the supervison of pro swoopers and great canopy coaches (its great to be able to say your cousin is none other than hans paulson - word hansie, hopefully being a world class swooper runs in the fam). and that the point of this post is to share my experiences for the purpose of not scaring every other skydiver at your DZ with your corner-lishous, stabing manic swoops. that by the way get you no fucking distance, speaking from experience of course.

i learned (and am always learning on every swoop) on a saber2 150 loaded at 1.2. i put 300+ jumps on it and its quicker recovery arc definitly saved my ass more than acouple times. IMO i think that when learing to swoop, the sabre2 (or a canopy that has a similar recovery arc) is the right way to go. if your gonna be swooping, sooner or later your gonna see the corner... and it comes real fast. IMO everyone thats chooses to get into swooping shoud have the same lecture that i had, from highly respected pilots - swooping is dangerous, and just because we are teaching you how to do it, doesnt mean that your gonna do it right every time. lets all be honest here, i can almost bet the farm the every HP pilot on here has been in the corner more times earlier on that we care to remember. i think its part of learning. you have to know what the corner looks and feels like to be able to get out of it. eps on a shorter recovery arc wing. before you can even think 'oh shit, im low', it can be too late and your on your way skyjunky.com to buy the 'got titanum?' shirt (your welcome for the plug dave). because at a light wing loading these canopies have to be hooked lower, better it be on a canpoy that will dig out quick. even on these canopies at this light loading, ive seen femuring and other leg breaking speeds and fairly longish dives. BUT...

in true dropzone.com spirit, allow me to contradict myself now....

when i started flying longer recovery arc tarps (samurai,katana), the first 100 swoops on them were abit scary to watch from the ground. i was swooping it the way i had swooped the sabre2 150.... just at a higher altitude. snaping the turn from the first 90 all the way through and diving it to low. not letting the canopy do what it was designed to do... stay in the dive longer. alot longer. i scared myself into some more canopy coaching. i was am learning to start higher, slow the turn down and use the harness more in the last 90 of the turn. so basically, learning a whole new way to fly the canopy. you have more time to asses the turn, while your in the turn. higher start alt = more time in the turn to fine tune (or bail more importantly)

so to get the what this post was about....

i think that the progression (for me) into swooping with the sabre2 was good... BUT if i could make all those jumps again i would have down-sized to a longer arc canopy earlier. not saying that i recomend a downsize, but...
yes i think that when you first start learning to swoop that a shorter recovery arc canopy is where its at, but for me there was a point were i started to develop some bad habits from it. just my 2 cents on what i am going thru in my quest to surf the turf.

:::Team Scarecrow:::
East Coast bad boys of body flight

[packing_jarrett 0]

[cj1150gs 0]

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the sabre2 was good... BUT if i could make all those jumps again i would have down-sized to a longer arc canopy earlier.

From PD Sabre 2 Flight Characteristics
"the Sabre2 loses slightly more
altitude in a turn than the original Sabre and the Spectre. By comparison, the PD Stiletto pulls out of a dive
relatively quickly."

From PD Stilletto Fligh Characeristics
"the Stiletto tends to
stay in a steep dive for a long time after several high speed turns. You can achieve a higher
airspeed and rate of descent on the Stiletto than on a Sabre"

For me it's a bit confusing
Thanks,

Carlos Martins
Portugal www.cj.smugmug.com

[phoenixlpr 0]

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For me it's a bit confusing Smile ...So, besides asking around is there a way to find out the recovery arc of different canopy models? Is there a way to measure it?

I think you might measure it with a help of a digital altimeter. Check altitude and descent rate before your high speed maneuver and get altitude where your canopy has its previous descent rate again.

[AggieDave 6]

You're basically asking for a chart. There can not be such a thing and here's why.

Every sized canopy in a given design will have a different recovery arc with different jumpers. This is due to weight of the jumper and the turn type (also what the jumper is wearing and the trim of the canopy come into effect as well).

For instance a Stilleto 170 with me under it loading it 1.7:1 will fly completely different from someone under the exact same wing loading it at 1.2:1. Also, myself at a 1.7:1 on a 170 and someone else on a 120 loaded at 1.7:1 will have two canopies at the same wingloading that perform a bit different. This also effects the recovery arc.

Sounds complicated, but we haven't even started talking about density altitude yet.

How do you figure out the recovery arc of a canopy? Go jump it and jump it and jump it and jump it....and jump it. Do a lot of altitude clear and pulls. Just when you think you've got it figured out, go do some more.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cj1150gs 0]

Thanks for the explanations. I do use a digi altimeter and I'm aware of my canopy's diving characteristics. But yes, I was asking for a chart, or at least for some comparative scale. Everybody knows that a Katana dives more and will take longer to recover level flight than a Sabre (for the same manouver and wingload). But there's not much info for other models like, say, Pilots, Safires and Sabre2's besides the one you get by asking around. I'm trying to decide on a next canopy and recovery arc is definitely something that interests me. Sorry for hijacking the thread.

Carlos Martins
Portugal www.cj.smugmug.com

[champu 1]

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...you have more time to asses the turn, while you're in the turn. higher start alt = more time in the turn to fine tune (or bail more importantly.)

What I think you are trying to say is correct, but what you wrote is only half right. A longer recovery arc gives you greater freedom in your rate of turn; you can slow the turn down a lot more while still building speed for your landing. This makes it easier to err on the high side when you initiate your turn, making adjustments to get rid of the extra altitude as you go.

I doubt many people would argue with me if I claimed it was safer to start your turn high, and adjust by getting rid of altitude than it is to start your turn low and try to "make up" altitude. Anything that makes the former approach a more inviting one could be considered A Good Thing (tm)

The problem I have with what you wrote is in regards to bailing out. With a bigger recovery arc comes, by definition, a bigger corner. This means you can get yourself into the corner at a higher altitude. Higher altitudes are less scary looking than lower altitudes, so with a longer recovery arc you're more likely to not realize you're in the corner until it's too late to fix. This is especially true for a novice.