Stepping up from 90s

[bob.dino 1]

I've been doing 90 degree turns for the last 250 jumps or so, and I feel that my pattern, turn and roll-out are getting fairly reasonable.

My turn is from about 300ft, on a Samurai 170 loaded at 1.2 or so. I don't plan on downsizing until I can run the pond on this canopy. Current plans are for early next year, assuming things continue to go vaguely to plan.

Because the canopy has a positive recovery arc at this loading, I think my next step is to increase the amount of rotation in my turn. Make sense so far?

So, if I'm going to increase my turn from 90s, how should I go about it? What are the gotchas? How would you coach someone making this step? I have and will continue to consult people that know how I fly, but I'm also interested in a wider, more general point of view.

Cheers.

[marks 0]

mastering 90's is the key, if your ready to step up, learn 180's to get used to the altitude adjustment then move on to 270,s. the experienced you gained with the 90's is going to really really benefit you when you go to 270's.

here is a good progression scale.

jump # 400-1000, 90 deg turns.
jump # 1000-1200/1250. 180 deg. turns.
then on to the 270's the 270's is where you will see your accuracy increase. you will see that you are better at hitting gates than you realized, only 200 jumps or so after starting the turn, then it is on to your turning technique, and style and performance drills and on and on and on. there is much to learn after you get to that point.

this is all just a vague explanation of what it takes, this is of course, with a 300 jump a year minimum currency level.

and yea, an mentor/ coach will help alot.

Mastering th 90 deg turn, will greatly help with your learning curve at a later time. skipping this step may kill you. But I know yuo already know this.

"fairly reasonable" 90's isn't going to help you later, master them. But you also have to understand, I dont know your skill level, because I don't jump where you do.

[dharma1976 0]

wow is that what a good turn progression is???

I was so far off from that

jumps 270-300 - 90s

jumps 300-750 - 180s (got accurate with these in a mad way ask your boy who went to pond swooping about my lane accuracy with 180s ;-) )

750- now working on accuracy on 270s already starting to set in same lane spots...

now admittedly I spent through lump 495 on sabre 2's learning to swoop and then brought what I learned there to the crossfire with some great coaches...

the big trick for me was to have friends with video cameras that were swoopers and mentors debreifing my turns and then even after that getting Germain to work with me for 3 days

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[frost 1]

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here is a good progression scale.

jump # 400-1000, 90 deg turns.
jump # 1000-1200/1250. 180 deg. turns.

Good progression scale? It might be good for a very very slow learner or a very very scared one. More then likely nobody learning to swoop would follow it since it would be a waste of their time and money.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Good progression scale? It might be good for a very very slow learner or a very very scared one. More then likely nobody learning to swoop would follow it since it would be a waste of their time and money.

Everyone progresses at a different rate. It's about the progression my wife has taken, and, she's outswooping most hotshots on their xbraces who rushed things while she's only on a KA loaded @ 1.3.

By spending so much time on the basics (imo I'd like to have seen her move a little faster but she wasn't in any rush) she's developed an incredibly strong foundation to build on and it shows. Adding degrees of rotation at this point has been trouble free and the results are almost immediate.

Not saying it's the only way to go, but it's definitely not a bad one. It just feels slow to pilots who only judge ones ability to swoop by the amount of degrees in a rotation.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[Pendragon 1]

You might want to consider going in 45 degree increments, so doing 135s before 180s. You'll notice that anything over a 90 is more disorientating, at least at first.

One way to accomplish this is to make a 45 degree front riser turn away from the direction you wish to land in on your crosswind leg then, as the canopy is recovering (but still has the additional speed), make the 135 front riser turn to land. I've done this numerous times on my Xfire2 with success. You will obviously have to set up higher: my initiation altitudes are slightly under 500 ft for the 45 turn away, then c. 400ft for the 135 (although I'm on that canopy at c. 1.8). Do nice controlled inputs - the canopy will dive more and you'll have the option to tighten the spiral or finish off on toggles more effectively should you find youself too low. Start high and work your way down, as per usual guidelines.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[frost 1]

This isnt really about what canopy to jump at what level. We all know people on bigger 9 cells that can out swoop others who fly x-braces. This is more about progressing and advancing the skill of a turn.

What i am thinking is this: Chances are someone with 1000+ jumps might already be @ 1.7+ wing loading. Looks like many folks are getting there way before then anyway. So why start learning advanced turns at that high of a load? whats the point of sticking with 90-180 for that long, getting to the the "expert" wingloading and THEN start learning 270+ rotations??

The only reasons i can think of why someone with 400-500 jumps cant dial in a 270 in 100 jumps (edit: using a neptune) are poorer motor-visual reflexes and/or healthy fear of the ground. Nothing wrong with either one, of course.

Of course, ultimately, as you said, everyone progresses at their own level. There is nothing wrong with going slowly. One can stay with a 90 degree turn for the rest of their swooping career and still cut the pond in half.

[ntacfreefly 0]

I agree, this isn't about canopy size or type (I was just using an example) but it is about progressing to more aggressive turns and therein is the point of my post. It is critical to get a solid foundation however long that takes the pilot.

I agree that larger turns should be explored under a more forgiving canopy as well. I don't think a highly loaded swoop rocket is the time to figure out turns
I guess I'm just a proponent of doing things properly the first time around (however long that may take), rather than having to go back and fix things later.

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The only reasons i can think of why someone with 400-500 jumps cant dial in a 270 in 100 jumps (edit: using a neptune) are poorer motor-visual reflexes and/or healthy fear of the ground.

This is really the only point I don't agree with you on. Sure I've seen a few who've done it, but I see a lot more who don't. There are more than a few promising pilots I've seen carted off because they simply didn't have the experience. A neptune will help you determine what type of turn you need to do for the altitude you're at IF you have the experience to know where you need to roll out and how the turn is actually progressing. IMO 99.9% of pilots with 400-500 jumps simply don't have enough experience to do that with that big of a rotation. I'm a huge supporter of digital altimeters but I fear we're breading 'go at the beep' swoopers.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[superstu 0]

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So, if I'm going to increase my turn from 90s, how should I go about it?

- getting good video will help you out tremendously.

- Realizing that when you increase your degree of turn that you will most likely have to either start from a higher altitude or speed up your turn rate (personally i would start higher and not mess with turn rate).

- do some high pulls and find out roughly how much altitude you loose with the type of turn you're starting to work on. ie 135 degree turn you loose X amount of altitude. use this altitude as a guide of where to start, when you actually do your turn and set up things change cause conditions and visuals change. only you can find the range of where to start your turn.

- keep as many things similar as possible and try to only change one thing at a time. this way you can see what the changes actually effect.

- expect to come in with more speed than you're used to. so the amount of input on your fronts, toggles, and harness, could change.

- have the right mental frame, meaning don't let your ego get in the way and listen to the knowledgable people if they have a better way of doing things or if you're low.

- plan your dive, dive your plan. walk your pattern and visualize what you're gonna do than do it.

hope that helps...stu

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I'm a huge supporter of digital altimeters but I fear we're breading 'go at the beep' swoopers.

I don't think that any gadget can give you an ultimate good setup.

[frost 1]

Agreed. We're on the same page...I am also a huge proponent of doing it right the first time and using visual digital altis.

As far as "go at the beep" swooper... It is not good, but seems that's where it's headed. Some might call it progress, others might give it a different name. I know one thing - I am seeing HUGE improvements from people who went to visual and audible aids like a neptune, viso or optima. I am seeing people with 200-250 jumps making 270 turns. They are not dialed in, not precise nor always on heading... But never [dangerously] low. I dont want to go off topic, or drift into neptune vs eyes debate... All i am saying is that turns can be dialed in fairly quickly by most people if using proper tools, MUCH quicker then just with eyes/experience. No need to wait 1000 jumps...

[frost 1]

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I'm a huge supporter of digital altimeters but I fear we're breading 'go at the beep' swoopers.

I don't think that any gadget can give you an ultimate good setup.

NOTHING will "give" you an ultimate good setup. But using proper tools, along with experience will certainly help you get there.

[marks 0]

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No need to wait 1000 jumps...

what about all the stuff you need to learn before you get to 300-400 jumps, before you start to turn?

that is the most important step!

now, in a fantasy world, we could all do 1000 jumps a year, and if that is the case, then of course all this progression changes.

BUT, if you stay current at 300 jumps a year, the progression I posted is dead on.

[dharma1976 0]

I did 300 jumps last year

and I progressed a lot further than that

Cheers
Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[frost 1]

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No need to wait 1000 jumps...

what about all the stuff you need to learn before you get to 300-400 jumps, before you start to turn?

that is the most important step!

now, in a fantasy world, we could all do 1000 jumps a year, and if that is the case, then of course all this progression changes.

BUT, if you stay current at 300 jumps a year, the progression I posted is dead on.

Are you saying that you were doing straight in approaches until 400 jumps and still doing 90 degree turns when you had 1000 jumps??

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Are you saying that you were doing straight in approaches until 400 jumps and still doing 90 degree turns when you had 1000 jumps??

I was. Didn't start landing with front riser turns until I got my Batwing at 400 jumps; stayed with 90s past 1000 jumps.

A conservative 90 degree turn was enough for 48 MPH out of my Stiletto 120 at 1.6-1.7; that was enough for a long time.

Some day if I ever get current again and end up doing many hop-and-pops in the Pacific Northwest I might progress from 180s to 270s.

I'm starting to feel old.

[marks 0]

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No need to wait 1000 jumps...

what about all the stuff you need to learn before you get to 300-400 jumps, before you start to turn?

that is the most important step!

now, in a fantasy world, we could all do 1000 jumps a year, and if that is the case, then of course all this progression changes.

BUT, if you stay current at 300 jumps a year, the progression I posted is dead on.

Are you saying that you were doing straight in approaches until 400 jumps and still doing 90 degree turns when you had 1000 jumps??

yes, I am saying that. I guess I am a slow learner.

[Samurai136 0]

I agree.

I load my Samurai120 about 1.7 and get good 150'-200' swoops off of smaller turns between 90and 180 degrees... Usually land right in the pea gravel, too.

I think I can count the number of 270's I've done on two hands.

edit: that may change. I just got longer lines put on one of my Sam120's and it surfs quite a bit further.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[michaelqld 0]

I did over 1000 180's at wing loadings between 1 and 1.4. At the time I felt like I was overdoing it but now I am very grateful for my patience.

When you start doing 180's respect other canopy traffic when flying to your point of manouvre and choosing suitable areas to swoop so you don't cause any traffic issues.

[frost 1]

I guess it only goes to prove how quickly the new generation of swoopers is progressing. Look at all the new tools, the knowledge base, the videos that are available to us now.... all that helps someone with 400-600 jumps perform great 270 degree turns and allows someone with 1000-1500 jumps to quickly learn advanced maneuvers that took thousands of jumps to master before.

[dharma1976 0]

and also we have other peoples great experience to learn from and ask about....;-)

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[proswooper 2]

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Because the canopy has a positive recovery arc at this loading,

Hi Dave. I see no person so far has addressed this so i will give my two cents. Assuming you mean that by positive recovery arc it climbs back up after you level out from a high performance landing.

If your samurai has a positive recovery arc (Brian germain canopies tend to have different flying charecteristics within the same design ive found) then increasing the rotation and speed is going to make it climb more as you will increase the lift. I have had the same problem on some prototypes i have jumped.

if you are looking to step up then you will need a canopy with a steeper trim also. try Sabre2 mamba katana etc.

[jheadley 0]

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Because the canopy has a positive recovery arc at this loading,

Hi Dave. I see no person so far has addressed this so i will give my two cents. Assuming you mean that by positive recovery arc it climbs back up after you level out from a high performance landing.

If your samurai has a positive recovery arc (Brian germain canopies tend to have different flying charecteristics within the same design ive found) then increasing the rotation and speed is going to make it climb more as you will increase the lift. I have had the same problem on some prototypes i have jumped.

if you are looking to step up then you will need a canopy with a steeper trim also. try Sabre2 mamba katana etc.

Also if you do like the samurai, Brian can change the line trim for you so it will dive more.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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If your samurai has a positive recovery arc (Brian germain canopies tend to have different flying charecteristics within the same design ive found) then increasing the rotation and speed is going to make it climb more as you will increase the lift. I have had the same problem on some prototypes i have jumped.

I noticed the same on a Pilot and just a 180 degree front riser turn. It has leveled out and started to climb .
I was not diving as much with a slow single front riser turn as it does with double fronts applied.

[Samurai136 0]

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Also if you do like the samurai, Brian can change the line trim for you so it will dive more.

A few qualifications on that...

I own a Signature Series 120 and a standard Sam120.

There are several tweaks to the planform design on the signature series that make it turn quicker and dive further.

The standard Sam120 would build up riser pressure faster and not dive as far as the SS120. I just had my standard Sam relined w/ a swoop lineset (longer lines) to address that minor discrepancy. It dives further now (still not as much as the Signature Series standard line set) and the longer lines have extended my swoop by 30'-50'.

I used to jump a 136 at 1.3-1.4 W/L. The Original Poster is looking to:

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My turn is from about 300ft, on a Samurai 170 loaded at 1.2 or so. I don't plan on downsizing until I can run the pond (120m/ 360ft) on this canopy.

I'm not certain that he would ever cover 120m on a Sam170 loaded that lightly.

The longest Sam Swoop I've seen cover that distance is the attached Sam105 Photo which is loaded in the 2.0+ range.

Point being: If the goal is to swoop the pond, downsizing to a Sam150 or Sam136 while developing technique will have greater results than relining a Sam170.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken