Vector 2's and Cypres not working

[briansvr1 0]

I've heard stories, and personally seen one incident, of a cypres firing, and the cutter working, but the pilot chute not emerging from the under the flaps.

RWS didn't return my email and SSK says there is no indication of problems. I would like to buy a new Vector. If I can't clear this up it's going to be a Javelin.
Has anyone encountered this problem or have any information on it? It's more then a little concerning.

Brian Hay
SSQ

[PhreeZone 20]

If the PC did'nt pop the flaps there was way more wrong then you are telling us. A cypres fire does the same thing as a ripcord pull on the Vector design. Either the rigger that packed it did'nt close it right and caused something to jam or this is another skydiver urban legand (Airlocked canopies floating into the sunset on a chop). I've packed a V2 a few times and as long as the rig is closed right and the cypres cutter is routed right and straight there should be nothing restricting the way a Vector opens. The V2 and a Jav only differ in that the Jav has a partually exposed PC and the Vector is competly covered. If anything the Javelin has a weaker spring then a V2.

You can't even order a Vector 2 any more, only M series Vector 3's and Microns. Vector 3's were introduced in 1994 so anything like this would have came to RWS's attention years ago.

Edit: And there is the maker and guru from RWS posting on this one too... can't get better then that!

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billbooth 10]

Brian;

I honestly have never heard of such a incident. We are just about to make our 40,000 th Vector, so if there were such a problem, I'm sure it would have surfaced by now. If you have any information to the contrary, please call me at the Relative Workshop, and we'll track it down together. (386) 736-7589.

Bill Booth

[riggerrob 643]

First time I have heard of this malfunction.
Double check that your closing loop was made of Cypres cord?

[hookitt 1]

Vector, Javelin, You'll be fine with either. I agree with the urban legend post. Since Bill Boothe already posted, this seems pointless to do so. I prefer a different rig than the vector, but it's a very well built, and very well designed rig. There is nothing that would keep the rig closed after a ripcord pull or a cypress fire barring serious misrigging or lack of a reserve pilot chute. (the latter was written for affect)

You say you witnessed a pilot chute not emerging from the flaps? This sure sounds like you're speaking of a fatality. What was the equipment (year, make, model, reserve pilot chute) and the findings from the investigating rigger and from the investigation itself.

Something is amiss here.

I would on any given day trust myself to a new vector.
C-ya

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[skycat 0]

Wasn't their an SB out about weak springs in V2s along time ago?

Found the buliletin
http://www.relativeworkshop.com/pdf_files/techpsb_012191.pdf

Fly it like you stole it!

[billbooth 10]

Skycat;

In 1991 we did issue a service bulletin about our older Vector I pilot chutes, which used the spring similar to the even older MA-1 pilotchute. These springs were rated at only about 25 pounds, and tended to lose strength after 5 or 6 years, but were nevertheless the industry standard. The service bulletin told jumpers that if their pilot chute spring had degraded below 20 pounds, it should be replaced. But even then, we did not have any reports of total malfunctions, only pilot chute hesitations.

We responded to this problem by developing the Vector II pilot chute spring, which was rated at 45 pounds, but more importantly, didn't degrade very much with time. We still use this design, and have made nearly 40,000 of them.

If any Vector I pilot chutes are still in service, they are over 12 years old, and their springs probably well below 20 pounds...These should no longer be jumped. Vector I pilot chutes can be identified by a small, 3 inch crown, and mesh lower portion. Vector II pilot chutes have no mesh and a 6 inch crown.

[briansvr1 0]

I tried to keep the original question brief. I can go into a little more detail. Firstly, there is no rig, in my opinion, that has better R&D then Vector. It's been my personal rig for 15 years. If I still have concerns about this situation, I'll give Bill Booth a call. Who ever said it doesn't get any better then that was right.

The rig belonged to me, but was a loaner at my DZ. It was a vector 2 with the a meshless, stainless steel pilotchute. The jumper had an extremely low pull and landed without incident under the main. As he was walking back to the hanger the reserve flaps opened and the pilotchute dropped out. The reserve container had stayed shut through landing and about 100 feet of walking.

We inspected the rig and found the expert cypres had fired and cut the closing loop. We checked the spring, it passed (although I don't recall the number). Since the flaps had opened we were unable to inspect the closing of the packjob. Everything else seemed in order. We confirmed a cypres closing loop.

I don't know if a firing at terminal would have significantly changed the dynamics. Given that the reserve container never opened, even through flight and landing, I doubt it.

I was on the DZ and observed the incident.

Any ideas?

[alan 1]

Quote

Any ideas?

The CYPRES may have fired on the ground as the jumper in question was walking back to the hangar. Did you send it in to have the internal data analyzed? They used to have an RF shield on the control unit because of several similar incidents.

alan

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Any ideas?

It may have simply been the cypres misfiring as the jumper walked back. It's been known to happen on the ground.

Once, at Aerohio, a rig sitting on a picnic tables fired for no known reason. Incidentally, the closest person was 10 feet away, and was talking on a cellphone.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[riggerrob 643]

Yes,
It is possible that a cell phone or radio scared the Cypres on the gorund.
Another possibility is that the reserve loop was way too long.
If the closing loop is way too long there is a slim chance that the loop got pinched between the top of the pilotchute and the underside of a flap.
I encountered this problem on an obscure version of the student Telesis man container. After he saw the problem demonstrated on the ground, Sandy Reid announced that R.I. would not build anymore of that version. A couple of years later, the biggest user of that version asked me to convert all of their Telesis to a simpler configuration.

I haven't packed a Vector I pilotchute in the last decade. Mind you, I have packed dozens of Vector II pilotchutes into Vector I containers. Sometimes it was a hard sell and I simply refused to repack the rig without a strong pilotchute spring.