DrewEckhardt 0 #26 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuote ...My goal is executing the turn that my canopy is planing out by itself. IMHO that is the optimal way. It is possible to flatten out earlier, but that a waste of energy... Brian Germain would disagree with you, and actually so do I. That depends on how you define "optimal" For competition "optimal" means "the longest swoop possible" where needing to apply "a little" toggle input to plane out is the right answer. For recreation under a canopy (example: Stiletto) which will level out without toggle or rear riser input, "optimal" probably means "the best combination of safety and chances for a long swoop".' Under that definition, the approach requiring no toggle/riser input is "optimal." It's relatively easy to confuse "a little too much" toggle input with "a little," When that happens you reduce both your margin of error and distance covered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #27 July 13, 2006 QuoteFor recreation under a canopy (example: Stiletto) which will level out without toggle or rear riser input, "optimal" probably means "the best combination of safety and chances for a long swoop". I would have thought that any canopy that is given enough time and height would be able to level out without any input??? Is this no true?----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #28 July 13, 2006 QuoteQuoteBrian Germain would disagree with you, and actually so do I. That is a kindda interesting. I happen to read his book of canopy piloting. I have a canopy with positive recovery arc. So? If I a bit lower about/dig it out, if I a bit higher extend the dive a bit. having just taken his advanced cnaopy course, I would say that it is not a waste of energy and that if done properly it will give you further swoops... what I do is give a strong tap off the rears to plane the canopy and then release to no input for a good 100ft and then move to toggles slowly.. this is what brian had reccomended to me in person in his course... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #29 July 13, 2006 QuoteQuoteFor recreation under a canopy (example: Stiletto) which will level out without toggle or rear riser input, "optimal" probably means "the best combination of safety and chances for a long swoop". I would have thought that any canopy that is given enough time and height would be able to level out without any input??? Is this no true? certainly not a katana 120 loaded at 1.8 will not it comes out of the turn and continues at the ground in a really extreme way UNTIL you correct that by pitchign it up... I am sure there are other canopies that do it, but this is the only one I have flown.... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yardhippie 0 #30 July 13, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteFor recreation under a canopy (example: Stiletto) which will level out without toggle or rear riser input, "optimal" probably means "the best combination of safety and chances for a long swoop". I would have thought that any canopy that is given enough time and height would be able to level out without any input??? Is this no true? certainly not a katana 120 loaded at 1.8 will not it comes out of the turn and continues at the ground in a really extreme way UNTIL you correct that by pitchign it up... I am sure there are other canopies that do it, but this is the only one I have flown.... Dave Both the Katana 107 (loaded at 2.0) Velo 111 (1.9) and the Velo 103 (2.1) ive jumped will return to level flight EVENTUALLY. Keep in mind eventually is a VERY long time.Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #31 July 13, 2006 Quotewhat I do is give a strong tap off the rears to plane the canopy and then release to no input for a good 100ft and then move to toggles slowly.. It could work really well on your Crossfire.... I doubt that your canopy has a similar recovery like mine. It has a short and positive recovery, why should I force it even shorter? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #32 July 13, 2006 Most pilots will tell you, airspeed is your friend. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #33 July 13, 2006 QuoteMost pilots will tell you, airspeed is your friend. And Is altitude insurance? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #34 July 13, 2006 QuoteBoth the Katana 107 (loaded at 2.0) Velo 111 (1.9) and the Velo 103 (2.1) ive jumped will return to level flight EVENTUALLY. Keep in mind eventually is a VERY long time Every canopy will return to it's 'full flight' sooner or later. Some of the higher performance models will do it at such a gradual rate that you will loose most of your extra speed waiting for it to happen. As a note to everyone about this thread: This seems to be another one of those threads that has reduced itself to examining the mintue details of a swoop, 99% of which are irrelevant to 99% of the jumpers on earth. While it may be fun (for some) to hash out these details on the web, in real life we need to put most of these concepts out of our minds, and focus on the basics - traffic management, set-up altititude, and avoiding obsatcles. All of your BS about the fine poitns of this arc or that will mean very little if you wrap with someone half-way through your turn. As far as a learning progression goes, slow and steady is the way. Be smart and methodical. Double fronts until it's second nature, and your accuarcy is as good as a straigh in. Ditto for 45's, and ditto for 90's. Beyond that, get some help, and be careful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #35 July 13, 2006 QuoteWhile it may be fun (for some) to hash out these details on the web, in real life we need to put most of these concepts out of our minds, and focus on the basics - traffic management, set-up altititude, and avoiding obsatcles. All of your BS about the fine poitns of this arc or that will mean very little if you wrap with someone half-way through your turn. The easiest solution to this issue is to do either hop n' pops and/or high pulls when learning to swoop so as to reduce the potential traffic hazards to a minimum. Of course traffic can still occur if there is more than one person doing the hop n' pop and/or high pull. But it's still better than trying to learn to swoop after a full Otter load on a normal load. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yardhippie 0 #36 July 13, 2006 yea the conversation has wandered a bit. IMHO, awareness (of your gear and surroundings), avoidance (of things flying and stationary), abiding by traffic patterns/rules, and judging what is/is not safe for the conditions is key to learning to swoop.not necessarily in that order.Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #37 July 13, 2006 QuoteQuoteFor recreation under a canopy (example: Stiletto) which will level out without toggle or rear riser input, "optimal" probably means "the best combination of safety and chances for a long swoop". I would have thought that any canopy that is given enough time and height would be able to level out without any input??? Is this no true? Only in a descending frame of reference (as in CRW or freefall RW). Starting from a dive alll canopies will eventually return to their trimmed airspeed without control input. It's like an airplane - you trim the elevator for a given airspeed and the throttle just changes your climb/descent rate. Without an engine the canopy must be descending at its trim speed. While at higher than trim speed some (the Stiletto is a good example that nearly everyone has jumped) will achieve level flight. Some will spend a while in a steeper dive than that needed to maintain their trim speed before flattening out to it. This is referred to as a negative recovery arc. They will never completely level out without control input. Contemporary canopies buiilt for swooping all fall into the second category. The behavior is definately more user friendly. If you get to your desired heading under a Stilletto too soon and have spindly software engineer arms you may be unable to hang on the front risers to keep it in a dive, it'll slow down not matter what, and if flying level will surge forward as it accelerates to trim speed. A Samurai will keep descending in a shallow dive at higher than trim speed for a while. An Extreme FX will stay in a steeper dive for longer. Avoiding the situation where you need to hang on both front risers by recognizing it sooner and slowing your turn rate with opposite front riser is a better idea because it maintains roll angle. With roll angle less of the canopy's lift is acting against gravity so the terminal velocity is higher and it's decelerating more slowly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
