Using a Digital Alti or Eyeballs to Setup

[Vertifly 0]

I jumped an analog alti right up until the time that I started jumping a 9-cell elliptical. Which is precisely when it seemed necessary to have one. A lot of experienced swoopers were saying that the digital was the way to go for setting up and having an accurate altitude for beginning a swoop - every time.

This past weekend, my digital alti mysteriously did not make it to the DZ (ok, i forgot it). So the analog backup went back on the rist.

Instead of relying on the altimeter to setup my swoops (because I do not trust an analog for accuracy at 600 feet or so - you know how that meter moves 500 feet just by tapping it), I "resorted" to eyeballing the ground.

Amazing! Whalla! Presto! I felt more like a swoop pilot again. I paid much more attention to the setup, airspeed, ground speed, distances, momentum, etc....and whatever that sixth-sense is for coming in on landing the way I used to do.

The conclusion: It seems to me that there are too many variable to consider for setup to rely on a set altitude for beginning a swoop. Nothing beats the eye. Is anyone willing to contest or agree that relying on a digital altimeter can be a hinderance for accuracy?

I plan to refrain from looking at my altimeter to begin an approach from the setup point from now on. At least, for a little while to test the theory.

[ntacfreefly 0]

Honestly I believe in a combination of both. There are too many variables in every single approach to simply use one or the other.

Jeffro had a real low turn on a practice run @ lake wales because he didn't believe the audible and visual altimeters because his eyes were telling him he was way high.

On the flip side of that coin depending on the audible and visual altimeters is no better.

My personal feeling is to pay more attention to whichever tells me is lower. My eyes, or the device.

Generally I find myself using my visual alti for beginning my downwind (1800), running my base (1200) and when I'm in my turn area (750'ish).

For the actual turn the audible is there to give me an idea of when I should be expecting to go. I dont believe in 'going on the beep' but instead it's an indicator that, based on where I am an how my turn will be, will give me an idea of my recovery.

There's definitely a combination of the two. Relying solely on either one is a mistake IMO. There are people out there who use the neptune as some sort of religous guide - not good IMO. But as demonstrated at the PST this past weekend - eyeballs alone can trick you too.

edited to add: At a jumpers home dz they are far less likely to 'eyeball it' incorrectly. Its when we move around to unfamiliar places that it becomes more of an issue. I guess in the end it's whatever works best for the pilot
Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[davelepka 4]

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It seems to me that there are too many variable to consider for setup to rely on a set altitude for beginning a swoop.

Correct. What does your altimeter have to do with this though? Last time I checked, your alti wasn;t flying your canopy, you were. Your alti is just a tool providing a piece of info you can process however you please.

Here's an example, last weekend, I was REALLY far from the DZ after a tandem video. I was just barely making it back, and once I cleared the edge of the field, I used my alti to check out just how much I had left, and if I need to take a straight-in downwinder, or if I could get across the field and make a braked turn and land into the wind.

On the next jump, I did a hop n pop, and my alti let me know when I was 800ft over my set-up point.

See? Two different jobs, same alti. Your alti does whatever you want it to, not the other way around.

Disclaimer - If you're as far from the DZ as I was, just land off. This is my home DZ, I had outs all along the way, a tandem video to finish, and extensive experince with downwind landings, braked turns, and Hp canopies in general.

[raymod2 1]

My Neptune (1) aids me in flying to my initiation point and (2) tells me if I am high or low once I get there. The second part is extremely helpful because it gives me an idea of what kind of turn I need to make. If I'm high I need to make a slow wide turn to bleed off altitude and use a shallow approach. If I'm low I need to make a fast tight turn and initiate recovery sooner (maybe while still in the turn). Knowing this at 700 feet is a lot better than suddenly realizing it at 200 feet.

[superstu 0]

the more tools you have the better. i don't know of any swooper, at least good ones, that rely soley on 1 tool.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[lewmonst 0]

Both.

I'm constantly playing the guessing game with myself and my neptune. I think I'm at 1200ish and then I check, 1160 or so... I'm pretty good at it. (Helps to do 100 jumps a month) So i know what range I want to be in for my setup points, and I go first with eyeballing it, and I check my neptune before the turn for confirmation. I don't have an exact alt for initiation, it varies +/- 100 ft, but I rotate faster or slower, with various inputs depending on where I start.

that's just me.

peace
karen lewis

http://www.exitshot.com

[Spizzzarko 0]

Check this thought process out...

Using an altimeter is good for a general idea of initiation altitude and setup point (at a certain altitude I need to be over a certain spot of the landing area). The alti can tell me if I need to cut a certain leg of my pattern short or make it long if I'm to high. Once you start your turn you are probably not focusing on your altimeter. This is were your eye sight and your brain needs to kick in. I feel that some people out there are getting to a certain altitude, over a certain spot and then cranking their front riser down until they get online with the course. This is not a good mode of operation. What you need to think about is knowing that you started at the proper altitude for your turn , and using your eyes to adjust your turn rate for position, and line up. We all know that the wind moves you around in your turn. Most of this can be corrected with a proper initiation point of your turn. Now you can fine tune your position over the ground by slowing one part of your turn down and allowing the wind to push you into the proper line up, or speeding part of your turn up so that the wind does not make you overfly your line up. Now you must throw another variable in there. Altitude. If you are in the corner then bail out, but if you are slightly low then increase your turn rate to catch backup to where you need to be. If you are high, you can slow your turn rate down a little to catch up to the altitude that you need to be at. You need to start thinking three dimensionally. Altitute, Turn Rate, and Ground Position. Any other method of doing it is just gay (mooth).

[Peej 0]

Great post Spizz.

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[Spizzzarko 0]

Thanks dude.

[Vertifly 0]

hey spizz, can i spizz on your spizz.

sike, it was good.

[Spizzzarko 0]

AS long as you don't pizzle in my hizzle doggy fizzle.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Well done! U 2 can demolish any thread.

[Spizzzarko 0]

U 2? The band? Or is that some sort of web speak? Did you not learn anything from this thread? It looks as if this thread is dead then... I guess the moderators need to come in and delete it. Lighten up there "Francis".

[davelepka 4]

What happened to the 'ban the word 'gay' thread?

It was just getting good.

[Spizzzarko 0]

I think the moderators thought it was gay so they deleted it.

[jeiber 0]

Deleting threads is soo gay...

J

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[twnsnd 1]

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I think the moderators thought it was gay so they deleted it.

You should consider that a personal attack and warn the moderators. And remember that from now on Tonto must refer to you as kemosabe.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[raymod2 1]

Give Tonto a break. I for one appreciate his efforts to keep this forum clean of inane posts that belong in The Bonfire.

[bob.dino 1]

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Give Tonto a break. I for one appreciate his efforts to keep this forum clean of inane posts that belong in The Bonfire.

Me too. There's far too much bullshit trash talking in this forum of late. Makes it hard to find the useful information.

Trash talking is fun n all, but when it invades every single thread it gets a bit old...

[RMURRAY 1]

I just bought a Neptune (for swooping) and have it in my helmet for now. I might just keep it there. I allows me to keep track of traffic, ground references, progress over the ground etc without becoming fixated at it (the Neptune). I have it set at 1400, 1000 and 700. Works great. Yes, I could have bought the Optima (or whatever it is called) but I have the option of moving out of my helmet.

rm

[bob.dino 1]

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I just bought a Neptune (for swooping) and have it in my helmet for now. I might just keep it there. I allows me to keep track of traffic, ground references, progress over the ground etc without becoming fixated at it (the Neptune). I have it set at 1400, 1000 and 700. Works great. Yes, I could have bought the Optima (or whatever it is called) but I have the option of moving out of my helmet.

I've done the same as you, but with an Optima. I'm not a huge fan of squinting up at my left hand to see altitude when I should be flying my pattern and looking around for traffic, so I'm not bothered about digital visibility.

That may change, but for now the Optima is good enough for me.

[Peej 0]

Quote

Quote

I just bought a Neptune (for swooping) and have it in my helmet for now. I might just keep it there. I allows me to keep track of traffic, ground references, progress over the ground etc without becoming fixated at it (the Neptune). I have it set at 1400, 1000 and 700. Works great. Yes, I could have bought the Optima (or whatever it is called) but I have the option of moving out of my helmet.

I've done the same as you, but with an Optima. I'm not a huge fan of squinting up at my left hand to see altitude when I should be flying my pattern and looking around for traffic, so I'm not bothered about digital visibility.

That may change, but for now the Optima is good enough for me.

A lot of guys at my DZ have been mounting them on a leg strap around their thigh so when they're looking down at the ground the neptune is right there. I was doing the same until mine came off and bye bye neptune

Now i've bought one of Bonehead's mudflap mounts and my next one will be going on there.

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[bob.dino 1]

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Now i've bought one of Bonehead's mudflap mounts and my next one will be going on there.

Look where your mudflap is under canopy with the chest strap extended. Mine is too far out to the side to easily see an alti mounted there... ymmv.

[Peej 0]

Sheet, i hadn't thought about that!

Will check it out this weekend. Thanks mate

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[RMURRAY 1]

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A lot of guys at my DZ have been mounting them on a leg strap around their thigh so when they're looking down at the ground the neptune is right there. I was doing the same until mine came off and bye bye neptune

yes, if i move it out of the helmet it is going there. however, when you are looking down you are not looking around at traffic. truth is I have been too lazy to find a pillow to screw it to and move it to the legstrap....

rm