cheese_eater 0 #1 April 25, 2006 sorry folks, i have searched for this question in the forums but i haven't been able to find an answer. is it ok to use front risers to increase the dive on my canopy (I STRESS ITS A LIGHTLY LOADED 168 PILOT AT ABOUT 1.1 W/L) AND THUS INCREASE SPEED ON LANDINGS? oops i'll take the CAPS lock off now . i am not bringing them down to my chest all i am doing is hanging off them....which to be honest doesnt seem to do a radical amount of anything, its just some people see to be ok with this practice ...yet others say its wrong...i'd like some input from you folks....i stress as well that i am using BOTH on FINAL not using risers to turn.....i have done this a couple of times in nil winds and i have dealt with it ok...i am not inducing much of a dive.....if i was...i wouldnt be doing it....your comments and observations would be appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #2 April 25, 2006 Why do you want to pull on the front risers for landing? Do you want to learn to swoop? Trying to get down faster? Just feels cool? What is your longer term goal other than the next jump? My suggestion to you is to seek out someone on your DZ who is a respected and safe swooper. Ask them about you flying your canopy the way you are asking us. Tell them why it is you want to use front risers on landing and learn from that person about this question. In the hands of a skilled pilot (which at this point you are not) it would not be a major risk. However, you need to learn some basic things about what you are doing and get some advice from someone who knows you if you want to learn to swoop. If you ignore that advice and just go nuts and do whatever you want, you might be fine, but you run a higher risk of hurting yourself. Some people would say there are risks to trying to swoop on lightly loaded canopys. One of the major risks is a very short recovery arc. You need to seek out local mentoring if you want to learn to swoop. Let me rephrase that.... Seek out local mentoring if you want to learn to swoop Edit: p.s. A more complete profile might garner you more responses.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cheese_eater 0 #3 April 25, 2006 i am not looking to swoop at this moment in time, just GENTLY increasing my forward speed .....the last thing i want is ONE...to do ridiculous things...i could point u in the direction of people toggle whipping at 300 feet with less jump numbers than me. TWO. Do thing which feel outside of my envelope of safety...and trust me brother...i dont muck about when it comes to being cautious. let me reiterate.....the increase in speed i gain is not a large amount. I guess i didnt really need to ask what i should be doing.....i need someone around who is willing to watch me and help me....funny thing is tho...when i asked the resident swooper/canopy dude. they were too busy....that is why my profile is a new one.anonimity mon ami. ah well......time to fork out some more readies jeez....u cant even get some basic exercises and watchful eye without having to pay for it....maybe thats why ppl get hurt? well i dont wanna break nothing and your words have been noted....oh and BTW no i wasnt looking to swoop...hang on i am repeating myself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #4 April 26, 2006 QuoteI guess i didnt really need to ask what i should be doing.....i need someone around who is willing to watch me and help me.... Yep! Quoteah well......time to fork out some more readies jeez....u cant even get some basic exercises and watchful eye without having to pay for it.... That's a real pity. One thing you might try: ask someone to video your landings, then ask the swoopers to review the footage at the end of the day when they're not busy. Also, I've gotten loads of benefit from doing a day of coached hop n pops, with video and debriefs. It might be an idea to get a group of folk together and approach someone to spend a day with all of you - it would reduce the cost to a managable amount... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #5 April 26, 2006 Yeah...dude there is nothing wrong with inducing speed on landings. The argument could be made that EVERYONE should learn to do at least a 90 degree front riser turn on final. It's one more trick to pull out of your bag when you need it. As for coaching, everyone could benefit from it and I would suggest a structured class (Brian Germain, or Scott whats his name...or the PD Guys). There has got to be some folks at your DZ who will give advice and direction for free. I'm not talking about full on coaching here, just kicking down the love for a Brother (or Sister!).Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #6 April 26, 2006 Quoteor Scott whats his name... Scott Miller. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #7 April 26, 2006 I started pulling down on my fronts as a "bizarro" way to control NOT over shooting my landing target on a large canopy and ultimately this behavior lead towards getting used to the added speed, then wanting more speed then oh there's a 90 degree turn? oh and a 180 turn? what you mean I can do a 270 or even bigger turns? Now look at me. I'm a swooper and I wasn't even supposed to be one when I first got into this sport. All because I used my fronts to not over shoot my target. You definitely "DO" want to learn to use your front risers and you don't even need to want to be a swooper. If you ever find yourself in wind, knowing how to use your fronts is important. You'll use them to get down out of the wind faster (you sure don't want to be blown backwards). Plus there is that old saying "speed equals lift". But remember that you need to learn the recover arc of the canopy. People get into trouble using their front risers because they hold on to them too long and don't give the canopy time to recover and thus either dig themselves out of the corner or they dig themselves into the hospital and/or worse their graves. Learn the recovery arc of your canopy. Go up high, induce some speed by pulling down on your risers, let them up and feel the canopy recover. Do that up high tons of times and try to get an idea as to how much altitude the canopy needs to recover before you ever try it close to the ground. It's not easy, but it doesn't take much to make a fatal mistake. We're all only as good as our last swoop as each and every one of us is a split second away from making a bad mistake. Swooping rocks!!! But it sure isn't safe. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #8 April 26, 2006 Quotei am not looking to swoop at this moment in time, just GENTLY increasing my forward speed .....the last thing i want is ONE...to do ridiculous things...i could point u in the direction of people toggle whipping at 300 feet with less jump numbers than me. TWO. Do thing which feel outside of my envelope of safety...and trust me brother...i dont muck about when it comes to being cautious. let me reiterate.....the increase in speed i gain is not a large amount. I guess i didnt really need to ask what i should be doing.....i need someone around who is willing to watch me and help me....funny thing is tho...when i asked the resident swooper/canopy dude. they were too busy....that is why my profile is a new one.anonimity mon ami. ah well......time to fork out some more readies jeez....u cant even get some basic exercises and watchful eye without having to pay for it....maybe thats why ppl get hurt? well i dont wanna break nothing and your words have been noted....oh and BTW no i wasnt looking to swoop...hang on i am repeating myself. I think it sucks that you have to pay to get someone to watch you. You aren't limited to just one person though. If you ask around there must be someone at your DZ willing to help you out. If there isn't it doesn't sound like that cool of a dropzone to be a part of. Taking a canopy course would also get you on the right track! If you are in the US there are lots of dropzones that hold them throughout the country every year or you can make the pligramige down to florida and take one there. While I might not have addressed your specific questions in my first post, I hope I gave you some good advice. There are lots of reasons to want to use front risers and I think people should understand what they do, how they can get them out of and into trouble, and how to be safe while using them. That just isn't really something you can teach over the internet.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #9 April 26, 2006 hey man you know how much free coaching I have gotton on canopy piloting... ask around find competant canopy pilots at your DZ and ask for help most likely they will help you... Where are you from... the ranch is having a little canopy piloting course next weekend thrown by Sonic....all levels welcome... Sussex is having a not free Brian Germain advanced canopy course the same weekend Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #10 April 26, 2006 You have seven ways to add control inputs to your canopy. You should know them all, eventually. Get a friend to video your landings. Anyone with a camera will do. After the sun sets and if anyone with mad skillz is hanging around, offer them a beer and ask their opinion. Shouldn't be too much of a burden.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cheese_eater 0 #11 April 26, 2006 many thanks folks! like canuckinUSA said...i had started doing this practice mainly to get some penetration in a headwind on a large canopy... in fact it was an experienced person that briefed me on doing it at quite low jump numbers...and to not overshoot my ILA...my rigger also suggested doing it to increase speed GENTLY on finals..(i was asking now as i have a smaller canopy and my 'inbuilt worrying' nature needed to clear up wether i was being stupid or not)... i do NOT yank them down...i do not turn using the front risers either.(IE in my landing pattern).and i do not hang on to the buggers until its flare time.......what i do to my canopy does not give me much of a dive....i am sure i could make it dive....but i like having my body in one piece.... BTW my DZ is an english tandem factory....nice! time to further my horizons in the quest for experienced friendly people!! cheers folks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #12 April 27, 2006 Quotei do not turn using the front risers either. Front riser turns are not crime . Quote...what i do to my canopy does not give me much of a dive....i am sure i could make it dive....but i like having my body in one piece.... How do you know that you canopy don't dive? What do you really expect from a really flat trimmed canopy from like Pilot? How long can you hang on the front risers? Try to start doing double front risers from brake surge: -"Mark" you altitude. -Pull you breakes to shoulder level from full flight and release it at one. -Pull down and keep both of your front risers down for 4-6 seconds and releas them slow and gently. -Check your altitude. How much altitude have you lost? Was your canopy diving? Reading Brian Germain`s book: Canopy and its Pilot and a digital altimeter could be helpful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murps2000 86 #13 April 29, 2006 How long can you hang on the front risers? Try to start doing double front risers from brake surge: -"Mark" you altitude. -Pull you breakes to shoulder level from full flight and release it at one. -Pull down and keep both of your front risers down for 4-6 seconds and releas them slow and gently. *** This is from another post, but if you take this advice, I suggest you don't do it near the ground in turbulent conditions. Going from brakes to a front riser dive dramatically decreases your angle of attack and line tension. This increases the risk of collapse. Get "The Parachute and it's Pilot" by Brian Germain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #14 April 29, 2006 QuoteThis is from another post, but if you take this advice, I suggest you don't do it near the ground in turbulent conditions. Going from brakes to a front riser dive dramatically decreases your angle of attack and line tension. This increases the risk of collapse. Get "The Parachute and it's Pilot" by Brian Germain. You can wonder where is that advice coming from.... That's from the book that you've suggested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murps2000 86 #15 April 29, 2006 You can wonder where is that advice coming from.... That's from the book that you've suggested If the advice is to let your canopy surge from half brakes while simultaneously pulling front risers, it isn't coming from Brian's book. I'm all for people exploring the full range of what their canopies can do. But again, I suggest that this particular move not be done near the ground in turbulence. Ram air wings that rely on line tension for stability will cease to function when the angle of attack passes from positive to negative. Performing this maneuver will put the wing closer to this condition. A little downward gust at the wrong time and a collapse is a distinct possibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #16 April 30, 2006 QuoteIf the advice is to let your canopy surge from half brakes while simultaneously pulling front risers, it isn't coming from Brian's book. How about checking the chapter how to make a flat trimmed canopy dive? Quotesimultaneously ??? Sequentially. 1/4-1/3 breaks and release, grip front risers and hang on them.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murps2000 86 #17 May 2, 2006 How about going to the home page of this website and reading the article called "Collapses in Turbulence" by Brian Germain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #18 May 2, 2006 yay a pissing contest the thing that causes the collapses is rapid transfer from one to the other I know I have experienced it... if you do things smoothly...there will be less of a chance of this happening.... I tend to fly right before my turn in like 1/2 brakes and then while I am releasing the brakes...I start a mooth harness input and get my hands in the dive loops....then I start my riser turn.... the trick is to maintain positive pressure on the lines.... cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites murps2000 86 #19 May 3, 2006 yay a pissing contest I know, good times isn't it? *** the thing that causes the collapses is rapid transfer from one to the other I know I have experienced it... if you do things smoothly...there will be less of a chance of this happening.... I tend to fly right before my turn in like 1/2 brakes and then while I am releasing the brakes...I start a mooth harness input and get my hands in the dive loops....then I start my riser turn.... the trick is to maintain positive pressure on the lines.... *** Yeah, i agree. I've done that kind of thing landing tandems, and it makes it easier to get a more powerful flare. But I just don't think it's a great idea to do it in turbulence. I also don't think it's so bad to use fronts judiciously in turbulence to maintain airspeed and canopy pressurization. But not half- brakes, release, then hang on fronts. Personally I try to start my turns to final from full flight whenever possible. I figure why slow down right before I plan to accelerate? Also, I've yet to own a canopy on which riser pressure exceeded my ability to pull before I was going as fast as I wanted to go, but then I've never done more than a 360' approach. It sounds like your application of a mooth harness turn while getting ready to use fronts would be a good technique, tho. I agree, mooth is best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #20 May 3, 2006 QuoteI agree, mooth is best. its all about the mooth approach and the mooth movement and moothing on the ladies Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spizzzarko 0 #21 May 3, 2006 mooth is gay... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #22 May 3, 2006 spizzzarko is mooothhttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spizzzarko 0 #23 May 3, 2006 I'm a mooth operator. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites twnsnd 1 #24 May 3, 2006 Hey Tonto, where's the warning with the mooth attacks? -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #25 May 3, 2006 QuoteHey Tonto, where's the warning with the mooth attacks? mooth is the new gay Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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phoenixlpr 0 #12 April 27, 2006 Quotei do not turn using the front risers either. Front riser turns are not crime . Quote...what i do to my canopy does not give me much of a dive....i am sure i could make it dive....but i like having my body in one piece.... How do you know that you canopy don't dive? What do you really expect from a really flat trimmed canopy from like Pilot? How long can you hang on the front risers? Try to start doing double front risers from brake surge: -"Mark" you altitude. -Pull you breakes to shoulder level from full flight and release it at one. -Pull down and keep both of your front risers down for 4-6 seconds and releas them slow and gently. -Check your altitude. How much altitude have you lost? Was your canopy diving? Reading Brian Germain`s book: Canopy and its Pilot and a digital altimeter could be helpful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #13 April 29, 2006 How long can you hang on the front risers? Try to start doing double front risers from brake surge: -"Mark" you altitude. -Pull you breakes to shoulder level from full flight and release it at one. -Pull down and keep both of your front risers down for 4-6 seconds and releas them slow and gently. *** This is from another post, but if you take this advice, I suggest you don't do it near the ground in turbulent conditions. Going from brakes to a front riser dive dramatically decreases your angle of attack and line tension. This increases the risk of collapse. Get "The Parachute and it's Pilot" by Brian Germain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #14 April 29, 2006 QuoteThis is from another post, but if you take this advice, I suggest you don't do it near the ground in turbulent conditions. Going from brakes to a front riser dive dramatically decreases your angle of attack and line tension. This increases the risk of collapse. Get "The Parachute and it's Pilot" by Brian Germain. You can wonder where is that advice coming from.... That's from the book that you've suggested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #15 April 29, 2006 You can wonder where is that advice coming from.... That's from the book that you've suggested If the advice is to let your canopy surge from half brakes while simultaneously pulling front risers, it isn't coming from Brian's book. I'm all for people exploring the full range of what their canopies can do. But again, I suggest that this particular move not be done near the ground in turbulence. Ram air wings that rely on line tension for stability will cease to function when the angle of attack passes from positive to negative. Performing this maneuver will put the wing closer to this condition. A little downward gust at the wrong time and a collapse is a distinct possibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #16 April 30, 2006 QuoteIf the advice is to let your canopy surge from half brakes while simultaneously pulling front risers, it isn't coming from Brian's book. How about checking the chapter how to make a flat trimmed canopy dive? Quotesimultaneously ??? Sequentially. 1/4-1/3 breaks and release, grip front risers and hang on them.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #17 May 2, 2006 How about going to the home page of this website and reading the article called "Collapses in Turbulence" by Brian Germain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #18 May 2, 2006 yay a pissing contest the thing that causes the collapses is rapid transfer from one to the other I know I have experienced it... if you do things smoothly...there will be less of a chance of this happening.... I tend to fly right before my turn in like 1/2 brakes and then while I am releasing the brakes...I start a mooth harness input and get my hands in the dive loops....then I start my riser turn.... the trick is to maintain positive pressure on the lines.... cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #19 May 3, 2006 yay a pissing contest I know, good times isn't it? *** the thing that causes the collapses is rapid transfer from one to the other I know I have experienced it... if you do things smoothly...there will be less of a chance of this happening.... I tend to fly right before my turn in like 1/2 brakes and then while I am releasing the brakes...I start a mooth harness input and get my hands in the dive loops....then I start my riser turn.... the trick is to maintain positive pressure on the lines.... *** Yeah, i agree. I've done that kind of thing landing tandems, and it makes it easier to get a more powerful flare. But I just don't think it's a great idea to do it in turbulence. I also don't think it's so bad to use fronts judiciously in turbulence to maintain airspeed and canopy pressurization. But not half- brakes, release, then hang on fronts. Personally I try to start my turns to final from full flight whenever possible. I figure why slow down right before I plan to accelerate? Also, I've yet to own a canopy on which riser pressure exceeded my ability to pull before I was going as fast as I wanted to go, but then I've never done more than a 360' approach. It sounds like your application of a mooth harness turn while getting ready to use fronts would be a good technique, tho. I agree, mooth is best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #20 May 3, 2006 QuoteI agree, mooth is best. its all about the mooth approach and the mooth movement and moothing on the ladies Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #22 May 3, 2006 spizzzarko is mooothhttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #23 May 3, 2006 I'm a mooth operator. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twnsnd 1 #24 May 3, 2006 Hey Tonto, where's the warning with the mooth attacks? -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #25 May 3, 2006 QuoteHey Tonto, where's the warning with the mooth attacks? mooth is the new gay Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
