Tandem Mains

[efs4ever 3]

I posted this on wreck dot, but this group seems more sensible.

I'm looking for anyone with experience jumping Vector EZ 425 canopies. I'd like feedback on your experiences, good or bad.

Also, I'm considering a Sigma 370. Anyone have any comments about them??

Tanks
Russell Webb, Houston

[AggieDave 6]

Russell, I am assuming you know my boss, Todd Spillers, right? E-mail him, he has two Sigma 370s and a Vector EZ 425. They're all in Sigma tandems and jumpable, I could tell you what he thinks of them as a TM and what I think of them as a packer, but you'd probably get better results just calling the DZ and talking to him directly.
(979)778-JUMP

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[eames 0]

I have a couple jumps on a Sigma 370-- I think it's an awesome canopy. It flies a bit like a big Stiletto, but opens better. Very nice. I put one of the first ten jumps on one particular S370, and I thought it would be difficult to pack, but it wasn't bad even though it's a ZP monster.

Jason

[AggieDave 6]

Its not based on the Stilleto foil, though, its actually the Vengence airfoil (with out the airlocks, obviously).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[iowa 0]

I've made about 150 jumps on the EZ 425 and think it's a real good canopy. Flys nice and lands great, the extra flaring toggles are real nice if the wind isn't strong, I get stand ups with fairly heavy loads that even surprise me a lot. I hear the new canopies with the Sigma are better though. The 425 isn't as fun to fly as Strongs Set 360, but most first timers can't stand that much fun anyway. I could still make 'em puke with the 425.

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

[lowpull 0]

the Sigma 370 is probably one of the best opening tandem canopies on the market.
The EZs are still GREAT canopies but the malfunction rate is a bit higher than with most other tandem mains(line overs)
As far as the 370 goes, wow. very light toggle pressure, fast turns, and a strong flare and recovery arc on landing.
I have jumped a LOT of tandem mains and found the 370 to be the most predictable canopy that at the end of the day I can still use my arms after doing 10 or more tandems with the big boys.(which is who I usually take)

The 370 is expensive but well worth the $



Just my $.02


Ralph Nichols

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

The EZs are still GREAT canopies but the malfunction rate is a bit higher than with most other tandem mains(line overs)

That has a lot to do with the 6-grommet sliders used, though. If your packers can pack well, then its not too much of a problem, otherwise you can get a 4-grommet slider, although its rougher on your brake lines due to the size of the line groups and the size of the grommets.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

If your packers can pack well, then its not too much of a problem

i'm just wondering here (i don't mean to be a ass if i sound like one) but how do you pack a line over?? we have had this disscusion at my dz, and we have tried to pack a line over, and every time it cleared.

so what we came to is that a line over is one of those weird mals, and when we sat down, and watched a couple on video that we had, and talked to some people that have had them, and we noticed that most also had a hard opening, causeing the canopy to "breath" and when the canopy would "breath" the slider couldn't do it's job (keeping the lines from moving around, and slowing the opening) so the break lines, or "D" lines could get infront of the nose.

so i guess you could have a higher chance of packing a line over if you what to slam someone.

also we had a line over on a set 400 with a 6 grommet slider. the 2 on video were on a crossfire 99 and a crossfire 169. and i think there was 1 more line over this season (i think on a 129 crossfire).

and again, if i sound like an ass, i'm so sorry, i mean it in no way, i just want to know your experience with this, and how you can pack a line over.

later

[AggieDave 6]

You can do it if you Pro-pack a tandem main (esp w/ a 6-grommet slider), toss it down, letting the lines fall to the side and you don't correct that (by rolling the lines back to the middle). Although, I've never packed a line-over (knock on wood), this is my understanding on how it could be packed.

Riggers, please correct me if I'm wrong.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

You can do it if you Pro-pack a tandem main (esp w/ a 6-grommet slider), toss it down, letting the lines fall to the side and you don't correct that (by rolling the lines back to the middle). Although, I've never packed a line-over (knock on wood), this is my understanding on how it could be packed.

Riggers, please correct me if I'm wrong

well, this will increase the chance, but it will not make it happen. like i said, we have tried to make a line over happen. we took the nose, pulled it throught the "D" lines, and then rolled the tail, and went and jumped it (this was on a tursh rig, and a older main) but it cleard.

also, my buddy vern aka freeflyswc, never tucks his brake lines away. he leaves them out to the side, and i'm sure that every time he lays his canopy down, there right infront of the nose. he has never had a line over. my buddy kevin aka yoshi, he phyco pack, and it is very, and i mean very sloppy. and when he turns his canopy over, his "D" lines, and brake lines are all right by the nose, or infront of the nose. and kevin has never had a problem.

now this is just my experience with them, and i may be young, but i grew up on a dropzone, i've seen a lot of things, and this is also my dad's experience with them. and he's only been around the sport for 29 years.

later

[Hooknswoop 19]

I packed a line-over on an intentional cutaway jump. I put a steering line between the 4th and center cells of a PD-170. Came out of the bag spinning w/ a line-over.

Hook

[AggieDave 6]

*shrug* Maybe one of the people who have experienced a tandem line over will jump in. Actually, I'm going to go start a new thread about that, I'm curious now too. As for how I pack the tandems, I pack very very neat and usually (98% of the time) end up with on heading, soft openings...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skygod7777 0]

well, i'm not saying that you can't do this, i'm just saying that with my experience, and my dads experience with these mals, we haven't been able to get this to work.

later

[skygod7777 0]

i will get my buddy greg to get on here, and post his experience with a tandem line over. i know the guy who pack it, and he is usally very careful when he packs them

and to add to this one, with the set 400's and 360's you rubber band some of the brake lines to the "C" lines (or maybe "D" lines, i can't remember for some reason, but i don't think so) so it is even harder to "pack" a line over.

later

[lowpull 0]

I HAVE packed a line over on a 384.Sloppy packing and in a HUGE hurry!

As to what Aggie Dave said, he is absolutely correct about the 6 grommet slider having a higher mal rate.
(which is also why PD stopped using them.

I went through the RWorkshop I/E course with Todd, great guy. He knows tons about this subject also.

Hope this helps.........


Ralph

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

I HAVE packed a line over on a 384.Sloppy packing and in a HUGE hurry

ok, i have a question, was there opening hard?? did the canopy breath???

and like i have said above, i have not had experience with a line over caused by a "D" line or brake line ever being infront of the nose. like i said, the one's the i have ever seen, have always been a hard opening.

not to say that your wrong, just i have a different opinion on them.

and i am aslo going by what we have on video. the ones on video were packed by the people jumping them, and one of them (the 169) the owner is very neat when packing, always making sure to tuck in his brake lines, and keeping everything in the center.

later

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

he is absolutely correct about the 6 grommet slider having a higher mal rate.

i won't argue with you there, but i don't think that these are the cause of the line overs are they??

tandems (as i'm sure you know) all have a higher mal rate than anything else. there is just more material, more shit to go wrong.

later

[AggieDave 6]

According to RWS users will experience a higher line over mal rate with the 6-grommet slider if packing is sub-par.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Russel,
I have jumped both the canopies you mentioned, so I can tell you that if it is a choice between them, I would definitely spring for the Sigma. The toggle pressure is much lighter, and the bottom-end lift is much better.

Chuck

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

According to RWS users will experience a higher line over mal rate with the 6-grommet slider if packing is sub-par.

ok, i can believe that, but i'm still saying that not all line overs can be caused by bad packing. i used to think this same thing, and after i have jumped a tursh rig, with it being packed to be a line over, and it cleared, or not cleared, but when i looked up it wasn't there, i just changed my look on them. i'm sure sloppy packing would have a lot to do with it.

but they way i look at it, sloppy packing leads to hard opening (sometimes), and can help cause a line over.

you look at it, as sloppy packing, means lines infront of nose, normal opening, but line over, and like i have said, in my experience with line overs, i have not ever seen this happen.

look, i don't want to get the whole world pissed off at me because i have a different opinion on how they happen.

later

[AggieDave 6]

I'm by no means wanting to get "the whole world pissed off" at you man.
Although you have considerably more jumps then I do, I'm still in the school of thought that line-overs are the packers fault, plane and simple.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Just a thought, could be that your both correct. Packing can cause line-overs, by not controlling the steering lines and allowing them to get in front of the nose, or on a hard opening (fall rate, packing, or the type of canopy) as it breathes, it throws a line around the front, or a combination of the two????

Hook

[riggerrob 643]

Sloppy packing is probably the leading cause of line-overs.
I should know, since I have packed a couple of line-overs on solo canopies. I will freely admit that I let the steering lines get away from me on those pack jobs.
I suspect that it requires 2 or 3 packing errors to create a line-over: wandering steering lines, slider not all the way up, loose rubber bands, etc.
The rubber band nazis may now chime in!

[cobaltdan 0]

please check out:

http://www.extremefly.com/aerodynamics/canopies/tandem.html

if you are going to demo a sigma or ez definately demo the cobalt 350 side by side.

openings are consistantly 1500' . max opening force is extremely low. the c350 is an extremely efficient wing, having a spanwise cross braced nose that dramatically improves the airfoil. superior glide, flare and performance in turbulence over all other tandem canopies. not prone to twists, and is extremely stable in induced twists during deployment. toggle pressure is light but a hair above the icarus. no problem landing 820 pounds on only primary toggles. capable of fast turns with low drop in altitude. live jump tested and datalogged up to an exit weight of 1000 pounds and deployment speeds of 190mph.

no other tandem even comes close. if you have any interest demo's are available through our office.

sincerely,

dan<><>
www.extremefly.com

ps. we went to such high weights in our tests as they were proformed for the military. we demonstrated the highest speed deployments and highest exit weight the military has ever seen. the highest performance tandem the military had previously was a pd beefed up 420 with a max capability of 130mph at 650#.

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[skygod7777 0]

i can agree with that.

later