sagan 0 #1 October 3, 2005 I'm a real newbie (40 jumps)... I've never NOT had a standup landing, and hit the peas really early on... that really boosted my confidence in AFF, but now I'm struggling by constantly OVERshooting my landing. I'm not having bad landings, just grossly overshooting them. The last time it was by at least 80 yards (with trees in the next 50 yards) hence my concern. So what changed? I got some of my own gear including an alti (Alti 3 pre-galaxy). It seems like the needle never moves off of 1000 feet under flight until it suddenly hits 500! I tried smacking it a bit but that didn't do it. I'm pretty sure the alti works fine (I jumped with another to compare + my audible and alti match at deployment) I know I need to train my eyes better for one and I also know alti's have a +/- variability that can't be trusted low. I only fly a standard landing pattern (from AFF). I haven't changed anything else... deploy, control checks, off to holding area, 1000 feet of playing time, and then off to the pattern at ~1200-1000 feet. Any one have any tips? I'm feeling a bit shaky and could use a good one over. (I'm also planning on talking to the instructors at the DZ but wanted to get some other info first) Other stuff: I'm jumping a Saber 210, wind conditions have been all similar to things I've seen the entire year, which means 0-10mph from both north and south.-Patrick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #2 October 3, 2005 my two cents: Use the alti and the numbers to have a general understanding of your vertical position and placement. Fly the rest of the canopy with your eyes by looking at the ground. Get VERY used to the ground and distances like they are second nature. There is probably a lot more that people can offer but this is my system. Everyone has their own. Get one and run with it. Hope this helps a little. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WeakMindedFool 0 #3 October 3, 2005 First off always get advice from people you know and trust... that said here is some advice: 1. Analog altimeters are not as good as digital low to the ground, at least that has been my LIMITED experience. 2. If you don't know the accuracy tric i.e. things going away from you off into the horizon are beyond you current glide, things getting steeper your going to overshoot. The spot not moving is where your going. This "trick" is alot harder then it sounds but practice it and play around with it and you'll get the hang of it 3. Learn to use the angles to approximate. What I did (I was shown) Was to measure the height from the ground to my eyes. Measure a spot 3 times that distance out in front of you, and to the side. This is aproximately the angle you are decending under canopy. Many things will influence this, but it is a good aproximation. Get used to sighting down this angle and you have a starting point to reference where you are going. Hope this helps and remember, get advice from someone you know/trust! Peace! JasonFaith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #4 October 3, 2005 Quote1000 feet of playing time, and then off to the pattern at ~1200-1000 feet. Play time should STOP at 2000 and above. Any lower spiralling/playing and you're getting in other peoples patterns. Some patterns start as high (or higher) than 1800 feet. If you want to play - make dedicated hop n pops or high altitude pulls where exploring your canopy is the goal. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sagan 0 #5 October 3, 2005 Great, I'll talk to the instructors about the angle trick! I figured the digital alti's may be a bit better low, I may have to borrow and try one. Ian thanks for clarifying the play time alt... in case it sounded like i'm being an idiot in "play time" i'll clarify that i'm still at the stage where things like "braked turning" "penetration checks" and getting used to swiveling my head is "play time".-Patrick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #6 October 3, 2005 well my bad then, sorry! Sounds like you're doing a good job then. I could spend all day talking with you about how to improve your accuracy by using a good pattern but it's cumbersome and long to explain here in text. Instead I'll give you the uber simplied version. Fly your pattern. Try and have have fixed altitudes (preferred is maybe a better word) for 1) leaving your holding area to run your downwind 2) your base leg turn off of your downwind 3) your final turn off of your base. If you overshoot start by finding out how much you overshot by and moving your Final turn (3) back the appropriate amount in relation to your target. Then on the next jump fix the place over the ground for turn (2) (in relation to your target - don't use fixed obstacles for reference) and finally the 3rd jump to fix the entry to your downwind point (1). The idea should always be to change as little as possible on the approach so that you can figure out what worked/didn't work. If you change too much you'll never know. Anyway, hope this helps in some way. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EvilLurker 2 #7 October 3, 2005 Be aware that the wind will almost always drop as you get below 300 feet or so, resulting in an overshoot. You'll need to learn this by practice in different wind conditions. Put the details in your log book if you're serious about getting good at accuracy. The digital altimeter would be a help, or you could do it all visually. I still do what you're describing on a fairly regular basis in low/medium winds unless I really concentrate, and it's always an overshoot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites alw 0 #8 October 3, 2005 Here's just a thought. With your jump numbers you're likely getting more relaxed and confident under canopy and on landings. If that's the case you may be carrying more speed into the approach and then converting that energy into lift on flare instead of arresting your descent with sharper control inputs. That said, if this theory holds any water you're getting a different sight picture when the LZ gets up close and personal. All good advice comes from seeking it and you'll get the answers from the folks at your DZ that know. Perhaps this might be one of the reasons why it's happening. --------------------------------------------- Every day is a bonus - every night is an adventure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #9 October 3, 2005 Weakmindedfool had some great advice reference the angle of approach. Most canopies fly at about a 3:1 glideslope, 3 feet forward for every foot down, in low winds. Learn to visualize that angle. Adjust your downwind leg and especially your base leg to put yourself on final with the target at that magic angle from you. That will get your ppretty darn close. Learn to do gentle turns and "braked" turns close to the ground. That will help keep you safe as you turn to final. The closer to the ground you make that turn to final, the more accurate you can be on your landings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ScottyInAus 0 #10 October 3, 2005 If you know you're going to overshoot on your final, which by now I assume you can, why not just "S" off a bit?? Does the trick for me when I do, just be careful doing so and NEVER turn more than 90deg's from the target. This is what I've been taught Enjoy Scotty Cheers, Jason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #11 October 3, 2005 QuoteIf you know you're going to overshoot on your final, which by now I assume you can, why not just "S" off a bit?? Does the trick for me when I do, just be careful doing so and NEVER turn more than 90deg's from the target. This is what I've been taught Enjoy Scotty If no other canopies are in the pattern at the same time, sashaying (S-turns) to bleed off altitude might be ok. But if other people are also in the pattern, doing it risks, at dangerously low altitude, either colliding with other canopies or making other jumpers feel the need to make unexpected evasive maneuvers. At the very least, you may piss off other jumpers and/or the S&TA and get yourself a sharp talking-to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #12 October 3, 2005 come to the ranch and find tom rose... he taught me everything I know about accuracy.... a great mentor when I first got off student status. or get and read brian germaines book 6 times it helped me. Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #13 October 3, 2005 Although I only have 117 jumps, I can tell you that overshooting my landing target is reeeeeaaaaalllllly easy at my dropzone and with my equipment. My smaller chute flies faster and likes to turf surf a lot more, which makes it harder to set up for accuracy than a bigger canopy (The more student-sized Sabre 230 was much easier to do accuracy on). On top of it, I have learned that winds are often stronger at higher altitudes. I've gotten really frustrated at my flying before and you will get over it... So now I often try to set up for an undershoot, but my priority is a safe landing so I don't like to go much over the hangar or trees at approach pattern altitudes. One time I saw myself flying backwards over the hangar and I had to steer myself around to a safe "out" on the opposite side (A nice farm field). Setting up for an undershoot and entering the final leg at half brakes, you can let up or go deeper brakes to adjust your glide angle towards the target. (But talk to your instructors before trying anything new, anything that's said around here) A really good book is "The Parachute And Its Pilot", though I had to temporarily set that aside to concentrate on studying for my B exam which I passed... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #14 October 3, 2005 QuoteSetting up for an undershoot and entering the final leg at half brakes, you can let up or go deeper brakes to adjust your glide angle Thats a shity way to go for a few reasons. For one, setting up for an udershoot, and then adding brakes will give you more of an undershoot (provided you are landing into the wind). Flying in slow in the pattern sucks for everyone behind you. Encouraging a newbie to use 'deeper brakes' of final approach is just plain dumb. You did not explain the other half of your 'plan' which is that A) he needs to not be in any brakes before he attempts to flare if he wants a soft landing or that B) when returning to full flight form a braked flight will cause the canopy to dive which will produce a period of time when the jumper will have no flare what-so-ever, followed by a period of time where the jumper will have excessive forwrd speed (which at 40 jumps is most likely not ready to handle). Your suggestions may be one way hit a target, but certainly not he best way, and certainly not the way you want a newer jump to learn for the first time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #15 October 3, 2005 Quote Setting up for an undershoot and entering the final leg at half brakes, you can let up or go deeper brakes to adjust your glide angle towards the target. (But talk to your instructors before trying anything new, anything that's said around here) Assuming there's either a head wind or you're jumping something that actually sinks. Assuming that you can still get a decent flare from the braked approach. A big open-nosed seven cell trimmed a bit steep and loaded arround .7 pounds/square foot sinks with half brakes, comes almost straight down if you get close to the stall point, and can give you a comfortable stand-up landing as long as you come in a bit faster than the stall speed. A modern skydiving canopy at contemporary wing loadings won't sink until you get deeper than 3/4 brakes, still has a somewhat flat glide, and you'll have a hard time getting a comfortable landing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #16 October 3, 2005 Quote Flying in slow in the pattern sucks for everyone behind you. Flying relatively slow in the pattern makes no difference to the people behind you since they can always land after you (A 100 square foot elliptical at 1.7 pounds/square foot can maintain the same descent rate as a 170 square foot canopy at 1.0 pounds/square foot) and your parachute is only 25' wide. It's also unavoidable when you have a wing loading below 2.5 pounds/square foot and get out early enough. That describes most new jumpers at turbine DZs (20 people out in a pass) who have necessarily lower wing loadings and get out relatively early because they're in smaller groups. Quote Encouraging a newbie to use 'deeper brakes' of final approach is just plain dumb. It's much safer than doing S-turns in the pattern and will save your life in some situations. Quote You did not explain the other half of your 'plan' which is that A) he needs to not be in any brakes before he attempts to flare if he wants a soft landing If you can't land with some brakes you need canopy coaching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #17 October 3, 2005 Canopy pilots need to learn how to fly their canopies in full flight first. Learn where they are going, and how to set up a pattern to get them where they want to be. Only once this is mastered, should they move to braked flgith in the pattern. Without the forst skill, you cannot fully realize the changes that your control inputs are making. Ditto for flaring. Learn to do it from full flight first. Then when you experiment with braked approaches, you will see and understand the differences. It's a basic rule of teaching, it's easier to teach it the first time, than it is to correct errors, and try to re-reach. The pattern should be navigatied at full flight. Your accuracy comes from when and where you make your base and final truns. This is just common courtesy to other jumpers. You state that S turns are bad in the pattern (which I agree with). A portion of this is that it's inconsiderate to other jumper. Ditto for deep brakes. My post was not a manual for what is and what is not possible with a canopy. It was an indicator of what a guy with 40 jumps should be focusing on at this point in his education. Start with the basics. Downwind to base to final, and flare. Once you have developed that, add variables, one at a time, and see how they affect your flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #18 October 4, 2005 QuoteIf you know you're going to overshoot on your final, which by now I assume you can, why not just "S" off a bit?? Does the trick for me when I do, just be careful doing so and NEVER turn more than 90deg's from the target. This is what I've been taught Enjoy Scotty Hi Scotty, that will work fine for Wickham, when you and a couple of others are the only ones in the air, but if you come down to Perth and Jump at York and do it you'll get in all sorts of strife Ask Pete how he does things when he has more jumpers in the air. He'll most likely tell you that S turns are not a good idea, with plane loads bigger than a 182 Come on down to Perth (York) and play in the Caravan some timeYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ScottyInAus 0 #19 October 4, 2005 QuoteHi Scotty, that will work fine for Wickham, when you and a couple of others are the only ones in the air, but if you come down to Perth and Jump at York and do it you'll get in all sorts of strife Ask Pete how he does things when he has more jumpers in the air. He'll most likely tell you that S turns are not a good idea, with plane loads bigger than a 182 Come on down to Perth (York) and play in the Caravan some time Haha yer sorry, I didn't think about that much, I'm used to landing with, at the most, 4 others, haha. I'll be in Perth in Jan, living in Wanneroo so I was thinking York would be my DZ of choice. Can't wait for the experience to jump from something bigger than a C182 Cheers Scotty Cheers, Jason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dharma1976 0 #20 October 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf you know you're going to overshoot on your final, which by now I assume you can, why not just "S" off a bit?? Does the trick for me when I do, just be careful doing so and NEVER turn more than 90deg's from the target. This is what I've been taught Enjoy Scotty Hi Scotty, that will work fine for Wickham, when you and a couple of others are the only ones in the air, but if you come down to Perth and Jump at York and do it you'll get in all sorts of strife Ask Pete how he does things when he has more jumpers in the air. He'll most likely tell you that S turns are not a good idea, with plane loads bigger than a 182 Come on down to Perth (York) and play in the Caravan some time how many times have I held in brakes last in the air waiting for people to stop flying slow in the pattern.... flying slow flying cursing losing altitudeflying slow and flat and then finally the slow flier decides to land and I can go forward with my pattern. it is not a really good way to learn to fly safely in the pattern. Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #21 October 4, 2005 [reply how many times have I held in brakes last in the air waiting for people to stop flying slow in the pattern.... flying slow flying cursing losing altitudeflying slow and flat and then finally the slow flier decides to land and I can go forward with my pattern. it is not a really good way to learn to fly safely in the pattern. Cheers Dave Who said it was that's not how we do it either, you stay out of the pattern until you are ready to come in and land not float about in the patternYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #3 October 3, 2005 First off always get advice from people you know and trust... that said here is some advice: 1. Analog altimeters are not as good as digital low to the ground, at least that has been my LIMITED experience. 2. If you don't know the accuracy tric i.e. things going away from you off into the horizon are beyond you current glide, things getting steeper your going to overshoot. The spot not moving is where your going. This "trick" is alot harder then it sounds but practice it and play around with it and you'll get the hang of it 3. Learn to use the angles to approximate. What I did (I was shown) Was to measure the height from the ground to my eyes. Measure a spot 3 times that distance out in front of you, and to the side. This is aproximately the angle you are decending under canopy. Many things will influence this, but it is a good aproximation. Get used to sighting down this angle and you have a starting point to reference where you are going. Hope this helps and remember, get advice from someone you know/trust! Peace! JasonFaith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #4 October 3, 2005 Quote1000 feet of playing time, and then off to the pattern at ~1200-1000 feet. Play time should STOP at 2000 and above. Any lower spiralling/playing and you're getting in other peoples patterns. Some patterns start as high (or higher) than 1800 feet. If you want to play - make dedicated hop n pops or high altitude pulls where exploring your canopy is the goal. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sagan 0 #5 October 3, 2005 Great, I'll talk to the instructors about the angle trick! I figured the digital alti's may be a bit better low, I may have to borrow and try one. Ian thanks for clarifying the play time alt... in case it sounded like i'm being an idiot in "play time" i'll clarify that i'm still at the stage where things like "braked turning" "penetration checks" and getting used to swiveling my head is "play time".-Patrick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #6 October 3, 2005 well my bad then, sorry! Sounds like you're doing a good job then. I could spend all day talking with you about how to improve your accuracy by using a good pattern but it's cumbersome and long to explain here in text. Instead I'll give you the uber simplied version. Fly your pattern. Try and have have fixed altitudes (preferred is maybe a better word) for 1) leaving your holding area to run your downwind 2) your base leg turn off of your downwind 3) your final turn off of your base. If you overshoot start by finding out how much you overshot by and moving your Final turn (3) back the appropriate amount in relation to your target. Then on the next jump fix the place over the ground for turn (2) (in relation to your target - don't use fixed obstacles for reference) and finally the 3rd jump to fix the entry to your downwind point (1). The idea should always be to change as little as possible on the approach so that you can figure out what worked/didn't work. If you change too much you'll never know. Anyway, hope this helps in some way. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #7 October 3, 2005 Be aware that the wind will almost always drop as you get below 300 feet or so, resulting in an overshoot. You'll need to learn this by practice in different wind conditions. Put the details in your log book if you're serious about getting good at accuracy. The digital altimeter would be a help, or you could do it all visually. I still do what you're describing on a fairly regular basis in low/medium winds unless I really concentrate, and it's always an overshoot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alw 0 #8 October 3, 2005 Here's just a thought. With your jump numbers you're likely getting more relaxed and confident under canopy and on landings. If that's the case you may be carrying more speed into the approach and then converting that energy into lift on flare instead of arresting your descent with sharper control inputs. That said, if this theory holds any water you're getting a different sight picture when the LZ gets up close and personal. All good advice comes from seeking it and you'll get the answers from the folks at your DZ that know. Perhaps this might be one of the reasons why it's happening. --------------------------------------------- Every day is a bonus - every night is an adventure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #9 October 3, 2005 Weakmindedfool had some great advice reference the angle of approach. Most canopies fly at about a 3:1 glideslope, 3 feet forward for every foot down, in low winds. Learn to visualize that angle. Adjust your downwind leg and especially your base leg to put yourself on final with the target at that magic angle from you. That will get your ppretty darn close. Learn to do gentle turns and "braked" turns close to the ground. That will help keep you safe as you turn to final. The closer to the ground you make that turn to final, the more accurate you can be on your landings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottyInAus 0 #10 October 3, 2005 If you know you're going to overshoot on your final, which by now I assume you can, why not just "S" off a bit?? Does the trick for me when I do, just be careful doing so and NEVER turn more than 90deg's from the target. This is what I've been taught Enjoy Scotty Cheers, Jason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #11 October 3, 2005 QuoteIf you know you're going to overshoot on your final, which by now I assume you can, why not just "S" off a bit?? Does the trick for me when I do, just be careful doing so and NEVER turn more than 90deg's from the target. This is what I've been taught Enjoy Scotty If no other canopies are in the pattern at the same time, sashaying (S-turns) to bleed off altitude might be ok. But if other people are also in the pattern, doing it risks, at dangerously low altitude, either colliding with other canopies or making other jumpers feel the need to make unexpected evasive maneuvers. At the very least, you may piss off other jumpers and/or the S&TA and get yourself a sharp talking-to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #12 October 3, 2005 come to the ranch and find tom rose... he taught me everything I know about accuracy.... a great mentor when I first got off student status. or get and read brian germaines book 6 times it helped me. Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #13 October 3, 2005 Although I only have 117 jumps, I can tell you that overshooting my landing target is reeeeeaaaaalllllly easy at my dropzone and with my equipment. My smaller chute flies faster and likes to turf surf a lot more, which makes it harder to set up for accuracy than a bigger canopy (The more student-sized Sabre 230 was much easier to do accuracy on). On top of it, I have learned that winds are often stronger at higher altitudes. I've gotten really frustrated at my flying before and you will get over it... So now I often try to set up for an undershoot, but my priority is a safe landing so I don't like to go much over the hangar or trees at approach pattern altitudes. One time I saw myself flying backwards over the hangar and I had to steer myself around to a safe "out" on the opposite side (A nice farm field). Setting up for an undershoot and entering the final leg at half brakes, you can let up or go deeper brakes to adjust your glide angle towards the target. (But talk to your instructors before trying anything new, anything that's said around here) A really good book is "The Parachute And Its Pilot", though I had to temporarily set that aside to concentrate on studying for my B exam which I passed... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #14 October 3, 2005 QuoteSetting up for an undershoot and entering the final leg at half brakes, you can let up or go deeper brakes to adjust your glide angle Thats a shity way to go for a few reasons. For one, setting up for an udershoot, and then adding brakes will give you more of an undershoot (provided you are landing into the wind). Flying in slow in the pattern sucks for everyone behind you. Encouraging a newbie to use 'deeper brakes' of final approach is just plain dumb. You did not explain the other half of your 'plan' which is that A) he needs to not be in any brakes before he attempts to flare if he wants a soft landing or that B) when returning to full flight form a braked flight will cause the canopy to dive which will produce a period of time when the jumper will have no flare what-so-ever, followed by a period of time where the jumper will have excessive forwrd speed (which at 40 jumps is most likely not ready to handle). Your suggestions may be one way hit a target, but certainly not he best way, and certainly not the way you want a newer jump to learn for the first time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #15 October 3, 2005 Quote Setting up for an undershoot and entering the final leg at half brakes, you can let up or go deeper brakes to adjust your glide angle towards the target. (But talk to your instructors before trying anything new, anything that's said around here) Assuming there's either a head wind or you're jumping something that actually sinks. Assuming that you can still get a decent flare from the braked approach. A big open-nosed seven cell trimmed a bit steep and loaded arround .7 pounds/square foot sinks with half brakes, comes almost straight down if you get close to the stall point, and can give you a comfortable stand-up landing as long as you come in a bit faster than the stall speed. A modern skydiving canopy at contemporary wing loadings won't sink until you get deeper than 3/4 brakes, still has a somewhat flat glide, and you'll have a hard time getting a comfortable landing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #16 October 3, 2005 Quote Flying in slow in the pattern sucks for everyone behind you. Flying relatively slow in the pattern makes no difference to the people behind you since they can always land after you (A 100 square foot elliptical at 1.7 pounds/square foot can maintain the same descent rate as a 170 square foot canopy at 1.0 pounds/square foot) and your parachute is only 25' wide. It's also unavoidable when you have a wing loading below 2.5 pounds/square foot and get out early enough. That describes most new jumpers at turbine DZs (20 people out in a pass) who have necessarily lower wing loadings and get out relatively early because they're in smaller groups. Quote Encouraging a newbie to use 'deeper brakes' of final approach is just plain dumb. It's much safer than doing S-turns in the pattern and will save your life in some situations. Quote You did not explain the other half of your 'plan' which is that A) he needs to not be in any brakes before he attempts to flare if he wants a soft landing If you can't land with some brakes you need canopy coaching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #17 October 3, 2005 Canopy pilots need to learn how to fly their canopies in full flight first. Learn where they are going, and how to set up a pattern to get them where they want to be. Only once this is mastered, should they move to braked flgith in the pattern. Without the forst skill, you cannot fully realize the changes that your control inputs are making. Ditto for flaring. Learn to do it from full flight first. Then when you experiment with braked approaches, you will see and understand the differences. It's a basic rule of teaching, it's easier to teach it the first time, than it is to correct errors, and try to re-reach. The pattern should be navigatied at full flight. Your accuracy comes from when and where you make your base and final truns. This is just common courtesy to other jumpers. You state that S turns are bad in the pattern (which I agree with). A portion of this is that it's inconsiderate to other jumper. Ditto for deep brakes. My post was not a manual for what is and what is not possible with a canopy. It was an indicator of what a guy with 40 jumps should be focusing on at this point in his education. Start with the basics. Downwind to base to final, and flare. Once you have developed that, add variables, one at a time, and see how they affect your flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #18 October 4, 2005 QuoteIf you know you're going to overshoot on your final, which by now I assume you can, why not just "S" off a bit?? Does the trick for me when I do, just be careful doing so and NEVER turn more than 90deg's from the target. This is what I've been taught Enjoy Scotty Hi Scotty, that will work fine for Wickham, when you and a couple of others are the only ones in the air, but if you come down to Perth and Jump at York and do it you'll get in all sorts of strife Ask Pete how he does things when he has more jumpers in the air. He'll most likely tell you that S turns are not a good idea, with plane loads bigger than a 182 Come on down to Perth (York) and play in the Caravan some timeYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottyInAus 0 #19 October 4, 2005 QuoteHi Scotty, that will work fine for Wickham, when you and a couple of others are the only ones in the air, but if you come down to Perth and Jump at York and do it you'll get in all sorts of strife Ask Pete how he does things when he has more jumpers in the air. He'll most likely tell you that S turns are not a good idea, with plane loads bigger than a 182 Come on down to Perth (York) and play in the Caravan some time Haha yer sorry, I didn't think about that much, I'm used to landing with, at the most, 4 others, haha. I'll be in Perth in Jan, living in Wanneroo so I was thinking York would be my DZ of choice. Can't wait for the experience to jump from something bigger than a C182 Cheers Scotty Cheers, Jason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #20 October 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf you know you're going to overshoot on your final, which by now I assume you can, why not just "S" off a bit?? Does the trick for me when I do, just be careful doing so and NEVER turn more than 90deg's from the target. This is what I've been taught Enjoy Scotty Hi Scotty, that will work fine for Wickham, when you and a couple of others are the only ones in the air, but if you come down to Perth and Jump at York and do it you'll get in all sorts of strife Ask Pete how he does things when he has more jumpers in the air. He'll most likely tell you that S turns are not a good idea, with plane loads bigger than a 182 Come on down to Perth (York) and play in the Caravan some time how many times have I held in brakes last in the air waiting for people to stop flying slow in the pattern.... flying slow flying cursing losing altitudeflying slow and flat and then finally the slow flier decides to land and I can go forward with my pattern. it is not a really good way to learn to fly safely in the pattern. Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #21 October 4, 2005 [reply how many times have I held in brakes last in the air waiting for people to stop flying slow in the pattern.... flying slow flying cursing losing altitudeflying slow and flat and then finally the slow flier decides to land and I can go forward with my pattern. it is not a really good way to learn to fly safely in the pattern. Cheers Dave Who said it was that's not how we do it either, you stay out of the pattern until you are ready to come in and land not float about in the patternYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #22 October 4, 2005 QuoteDoes the trick for me when I do, just be careful doing so and NEVER turn more than 90deg's from the target. S turns on final can get ya in trouble as well. Think about the person behind you. If you S off in front of them you can cause them to have problems. I would try to learn to use front risers to steepen the angle if going long and going to breaks if coming up short. Talk to an instructor about how to do this properly. Remember what you do also can effect the person behind you. Also, if you go 90 degrees of heading and then straight back to 90 the other way, you just did 270 degress of turning. You can lose a lot of altitude with a manuver like that and end up off the wind line low. Try a back and forth motion with the canopy never really off the wind line and will lose altitude (just not as much all at once).Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #23 October 4, 2005 QuoteS turns on final can get ya in trouble as well. Think about the person behind you. If you S off in front of them you can cause them to have problems. also, using "s" turns makes the canopy in brakes one side at a time, if you want to get down quick, you can "s" turn with front risers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #24 October 5, 2005 it is irresponsible to suggest using front risers to S turn on final Mark. You know better than that.To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #25 October 5, 2005 Quoteit is irresponsible to suggest using front risers to S turn on final Mark. You know better than that. why? you think it is better with toggles? depends on experiance... not everyone needs to be held back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
