why dont we have BASE canopy equipment modifcations on our canopies?

[Newbie 0]

Why don't canopies get manufactured with some kind of tailgate, like on BASE canopies, to promote nose first inflation, and prevent line overs? I don't know much about BASE equipment, but reading some stuff, i figured something like that could be useful on a regular skydiving canopy.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[ernokaikkonen 0]

There are some. I remember reading here about something resembling a tailgate on some Jedeis, or as after-market mods.(I think?)

Installing a tailgate is a trivial task for any rigger, so the option is available.

Why aren't there many in use? In short: It's more trouble while packing, and people don't think it's worth it. Lineovers are (most of the time) easy to avoid by careful packing, and heading control isn't as important in skydiving.

Erno

[Hooknswoop 19]

Tail gates aren't used for slider-up deployments. I think there are those BASE specific mods/gear beacuse there isn't a reserve in BASE. In skydiving there is a reserve and it different from mains, free-bag, line stowage pouch, F-111, etc. Why bother with all the extra stuff when line-overs are preventable and you have a reserve anyway?

Hook

[Kirils 1]

Good question. What about the BASE pilot chutes; aren't they designed not to occillate on deployment?? I think it's to reduce the risk of a horseshoe and burble catch. Tom Aiello where are you?

"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

[cobaltdan 0]

your slider effectively does the same thing as a tail gate. tail gates are needed when jumping without a slider which is not an option for skydiving...

sincerely,

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[TomAiello 26]

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Installing a tailgate is a trivial task for any rigger, so the option is available.

There has been some testing on slider-up tailgate mods. However, to my knowledge it is still just testing. It's probably not a good idea to start modifying skydiving gear, unless you are a test jumper, or willing to accept the risks involved with test jumping.

BASE jumpers have historically avoided combining sliders and tailgates because of concerns about snivels, entanglements and slow or inconsistent openings.

I'm sure that some skydiving manufacturers have looked at BASE gear for ideas, but it's really just a starting point. The two jumping environments (and their respective gear) are different enough that simply pulling gear out of one and using it in the other sounds like a bad idea.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

Disclaimer: My skydiving knowledge is very limited. Asking me for advice about skydiving gear is probably a bad idea.

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What about the BASE pilot chutes; aren't they designed not to occillate on deployment??

The idea of a venting PC to reduce oscillation was first thought up by French BASE jumpers. However, I believe they used these PC's on their skydiving gear first. In that sense, those PC's were an idea that BASE jumpers borrowed from skydivers, not the other way around. It's just (far) more critical in BASE, so the idea has spread faster.

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I think it's to reduce the risk of a horseshoe and burble catch.

Vented PC's were designed to reduce oscillation and orbiting. The idea is to improve on-heading percentage, which is badly degraded by orbiting pilot chutes. Since opening heading is a far greater concern in BASE than skydiving, the extra money to get a vented PC is well worth it in BASE, but perhaps not in skydiving.

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Tom Aiello where are you?

Hmmm. I think I saw him somewhere around here. Let me try to find him.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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BASE jumpers have historically avoided combining sliders and tailgates because of concerns about snivels, entanglements and slow or inconsistent openings.

Oops, my bad. An earlier discussion got me confused.

This thread had discussion about a mod that some people said served the same purpose as a tailgate(anti-lineover measure). Hmm. Reading thread again, it looks like people found three different explanations for the mod...

[TomAiello 26]

BASE jumpers used to widely use a similar mod (bight of lines in a stow band on the slider). It's fallen out of favor because of it's effect on opening heading.

There are some interesting replacements, but nothing that's really tested enough to recommend it for wide spread use.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Zennie 0]

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Vented PC's were designed to reduce oscillation and orbiting. The idea is to improve on-heading percentage, which is badly degraded by orbiting pilot chutes. Since opening heading is a far greater concern in BASE than skydiving, the extra money to get a vented PC is well worth it in BASE, but perhaps not in skydiving.

They might be useful if you're flying a highly loaded elliptical. It would be interesting to compare the number of spin-ups with and without vented PCs.

One BASE "gizmo" which I think would be quite useful in the skydiving context are the WLO toggles. At first I was thinking for mains, but I think they would really be a boon on reserves.

Have a reserve lineover? No prob! PLOINK!

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[TomAiello 26]

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One BASE "gizmo" which I think would be quite useful in the skydiving context are the WLO toggles. At first I was thinking for mains, but I think they would really be a boon on reserves.

Have a reserve lineover? No prob! PLOINK!

Does anyone know if this would meet all the skydiving rules?

Does a reserve have to come with specific toggles (or lines, or risers)?

It really does sound like a good idea, if it's allowable to modify a reserve like that.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[ernokaikkonen 0]

Yay, a TSO debate!

Risers(and thus, the toggles) are a part of the container, not the reserve. Since just about any TSO'd reserve can be fitted to any TSO'd harness/container, I'd think that the reserve manufacturers can't really have much control on what kind of toggles can be used on their reserves.

I think a mod like that would require re-applying for the TSO(for the container). Or the container would have to originally be TSO'd with WLO-toggles on the reserve.

As a side-note: Wouldn't something like the SUPER-toggles(which require two hands to release, right?) be a better idea; it would really suck to accidentally release a control-line of a perfectly good 100sqft reserve...

(Disclaimer: I'm not a rigger, nor do I play one on TV)

[riggerrob 643]

erno got it right.
If you want to install WLO toggles on a reserve, you would need approval from the harness/container manufacturer.
To keep the FAA happy that would require repeating some of the TSO drop tests: an expensive proposition.
WLO toggles on reserves are a nice idea, but line-overs on reserves are so rare that it is hard to justify the expense.

[TomAiello 26]

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...line-overs on reserves are so rare that it is hard to justify the expense.

Does anyone have any statistics on the frequency of reserve line overs?

I've long thought that line overs on BASE gear (like reserves) were simply a result of bad packing. However, this year I have seen two experienced BASE jumpers with careful pack jobs have line overs, as well as experiencing one myself. Since we each had to rack up in excess of 500 jumps before it happened, I wonder if we might simply be creating a more statistically valid sample than was previously available (I don't know if anyone has 500 reserve deployments to base statistics on).

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Zennie 0]

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WLO toggles on reserves are a nice idea, but line-overs on reserves are so rare that it is hard to justify the expense.

I've seen some video of Eric Butts with a reserve lineover and it was some scary stuff.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>To keep the FAA happy that would require repeating some of
>the TSO drop tests: an expensive proposition.

If you wanted to retrofit WLO/SUPER-toggles to an existing container, yes. But what if you just added them as an option when bringing a new rig/new model on the market?

Which raises a question: How much of a change in a H/C's design necessitates re-applying for the TSO? As I recall, Talon/Talon2 would be a good example: The original Talon was gradually improved year by year, until the Talon 2 came out, which was pretty much similar to the latest Talon1s.

Are there certain things you can't change in the design, and you're free to do what you want with the rest, or what?

Erno

[riggerrob 643]

erno,
You are correct in saying that it would be easier to incorporate WLO toggles into a new design than to retrofit them to an older design. At least you would not have to repeat drop tests. Heavy weight, high speed drop tests = $$$$$.
As for your comments about what constitutes a major change ..... It depends upon how much you can sweet talk the FAA.
For example, Vector IIIs are still built under the (1970s vintage) Wonderhog TSO. Wonderhogs and Vector IIIs have hardly any common parts. Relative Workshop have covered their butts by repeating drop tests as new standards were published, but they have never gone through the paperwork hassle of applying for a new TSO.
A second example of a major change being snuck past the FAA is the Softie Seat Pack for pilots. Para-Phernalia had been building Softie PEP back packs and chair packs for years. When the market demanded a seat pack, they just started building seat packs. They convinced the FAA that if a Long Softie (chair pack) required the pilot to sit on some of the canopy fabric, then a seat pack was just a minor modification. PPI did not repeat the drop tests because their new seat pack looked suspiciously like a Butler seat pack, which is well proven.

Erno,
You oversimplified the Talon design lineage.
I guess the original Talon is so old that most dz.commers have forgotten it.
Part of that confusion started with Sandy Reid who was never very good at labelling his products.
The original Talon was basically a West Coast clone of the Vector with 6 reserve flaps etc.
In 1991, R.I. did extensive drop testing to perfect the Flexon, which was a radically new design with 4.5 reserve flaps, a molar bag, Stealth pilotchute, ringed harness, etc. All subsequent R.I. designs are considered minor changes to the Flexon TSO.
For example, the '94 Talon is basically a Flexon with trough style riser covers and simplified packing. The Talon 2 (introduced in 1997) is basically a '94 Talon with all the bugs worked out.
The Telesis 2 and Genera (introduced in 1997) use Stealth pilotchutes and freebags that closely resemble Flexon freebags.
The Aviator PEP (introduced in 1997) uses a Stealth pilotchute with a really long version of the Flexon d-bag. R.I. did a full series of drop tests on the Aviator because they wanted to TSO it to heavier exit weights.
The Voodoo also uses a Stealth pilotchute and the Talon 2 packing manual with a two page addendum.
In conclusion, while the original Talon and original Telesis share a common TSO, everything designed by R.I. since 1991 has been included in the Flexon TSO as a series of minor changes.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

Seems like it's a good time to bump this thread back up....

What I forgot to ask the last time around was: Would it be legal for a master rigger to retrofit WLO-toggles to a reserve?

[riggerrob 643]

A Master Rigger can only modify reserve toggles if he has authorization from the original manufacturer, or he can get some sort of supplementary type certificate (alternate TSO).

The only way i can see that working is if he "substituted similar TSOed components" (i.e. Wings reserve toggles) and sewed on Wings style toggle keepers. Usually this is more of a hassle than buying a new Wings container.

[TomAiello 26]

Something else to ask would be "could you effectively use the WLO toggle on a reserve?"
I know I had no problems using a hook knife to clear a steering line over on a BASE canopy. Hooknswoop tried to clear a similar (but intentional) malfunction on a skydiving reserve, and found it impossible. I'd be curious to replicate his tests with WLO toggles and see if they worked, or if there is some unforseen difficulty.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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"could you effectively use the WLO toggle on a reserve?"

I think it would probably be pretty easy on a large reserve(WL~1.0), but it could be difficult on a smaller(WL>1.5) one. I have no doubt it would be easier and less time-consuming to release a WLO-toggle than it would be to use a hook knife.

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I know I had no problems using a hook knife to clear a steering line over on a BASE canopy.

But it took you a while(I've seen the video)...

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I'd be curious to replicate his tests with WLO toggles and see if they worked, or if there is some unforseen difficulty.

Well, if there was a serious reserve-mal, one spinning fast, with line-twists down to the jumpers neck, it would be difficult to locate the WLO-release, but it would still be easier than blindly slashing with a hook-knife.

[hookitt 1]

If line release toggles were to be used on a reserve, I'd prefer the Super toggles. WLO's are pin toggles with an extra long pin and require a modification to the riser. Super toggles would require no modification. I would, however, Use a finger trapped toggle attachment with out a knot.

WLO's are one hand release. The design is quite nice however the possibility of Premature release is greater. This potential is heightened with riggers who are not completely familiar with BASE equipment.

While Super toggles require 2 hands to release the line, it would be less likely for premature release of the brake line to occur.

Another problem is training. Unless the user is familiar with line release toggles, they are useless. The time between recognizing the trouble and releasing the line had better be quick. A BASE jumper tends to practice Emergency scenarios on a regular basis.These scenarios tend to be very detailed and vary alot. A skydiver practices emergency procedures Just like this.....

..Malfunction...."Shit"....cutaway ... pull the reserve...problem solved.

See the problem here?

So are they Legal? Heck if I know. I would suspect they are not. I'm considering using them on my own equipment. But then again, I'm my own rigger so guess who would be in question If I go in? Just me.


Cheers.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto