Getting into higher performance landings....

[ManFallDown 0]

Thankyou all for all of your opinions...all are welcomed.
Just to clarify a few points that seem to have come up.
I am combining this 'downsize' with a new container purchase and so I would like to get something that I'm not going to have to change in 6 months.
Whilst a 150 is alot smaller than my current canopy I dont intend to launch myself into aggresive landings straight away.
I have access to several good canopy piloting coaches and courses which I intend to make best use of.

My immediate concerns were related to the considered (not reactionary) thoughts of others as to the scale of the downsize vs experience level with this particular canopy.
As well as what the Max Suspended weights actually mean. It seems that if you load your canopy beyond 1.6 you must be going straight past these MSW's.....so what does that bactually mean and whats the 'realistic' difference between whats been 'tested' and posted as the MSW vs what the canopy will fail at.

I know its hard on the net to get things across clearly or the way they are .....but I really have worked hard on survival and piloting skills in my relatively short time in the sport and can land my canopy safely and accurately...everytime in pretty much all conditions I have elected safe to jump in.
I am merely looking at getting a canopy /container combo that will let me learn performance landings in the near future.....and wont want to be changed in the 6 months after I start focusing on it......

I am already doing double front riser, 45-90deg front riser approaches on my current canopy whenever the condtions are right /safe to do that.....and I am no expert ! but am comfortable and safe in these approaches
But as always my safety red alert button makes me question every decision i initially make..and this next downsize is the next decision I have to make.

Your input...all of you is much appreciated...thankyou

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

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I am already doing double front riser, 45-90deg front riser approaches on my current canopy whenever the condtions are right /safe to do that.....and I am no expert ! but am comfortable and safe in these approaches

Already doing 45-90° front riser approaches??
Why do you want to downsize then?
You can learn a lot on your current canopy; 90°, 180° and 270°.
Before you have these things under control I don't see the advantage in downsizing.
I learned all my approaches on a Sabre1 150 loaded at 1.32 before I downsized to a Sabre1 135 loaded at 1.47. Going from 1.32 to 1.47 was already a big difference in speed if with front riser approaches. For normal landings the difference was not that big.
A Sabre2 150 will give you a wingload of 1.634. That 's already a high wingload which can be dangerous for somebody with your experience.

Be safe!!

[Peej 0]

You'll be able to comfotably fit a 150 into a 170 container and vice versa bro.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[ManFallDown 0]

I hear ya....but not quite.
The container I am looking at will not fit a 170 if sized for a 150.....and will be too big for a 150 if sized for a 170....
I am leaning towards a 170 main however.......I have had a few PM's of a considered few that have lit a few lights...

[Peej 0]

That's good news!

What container are ya looking at btw?

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[ManFallDown 0]

A new Atom Legend
My business takes me to France often and over there I know a couple of people who can give me quite a nice deal.

[Peej 0]

Cool.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[rhys 0]

i'll have to agree with rhino that it is dangerous to swoop underloaded canopies. the recovery arc is far too small and leaves fuck all room for error.

i was told this when i wasted myself on a 1.0 w/l i was told to downsize. i downsized to a w/l of 1.3 and the recovery arc was still too small. i did 800 jumps on that canopy though.

i now have a w/l of 1.55 and that is much better and much more forgiving. i am now going to go 1.8 and crossbraced

i attended a canopy control seminar that j.c. conclosure held and he said the same thing. underloaded swooping is too dangerous if you want to swoop get a good wingloading 1.4+

so just because the oldies got away with learning to swoop on low wing loadings doesn't mean it is safe.

also low w/l are more suseptible to collapse and turbulence etc. 300 jumps shold be enough to go to 1.4-1.5 w/l if you are current enough, but i think 1.6 is a little too drastic

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhino 0]

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i attended a canopy control seminar that j.c. conclosure held and he said the same thing. underloaded swooping is too dangerous if you want to swoop get a good wingloading 1.4+

Well shiver mee timbers.. lol

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so just because the oldies got away with learning to swoop on low wing loadings doesn't mean it is safe.

Another very good point.

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also low w/l are more suseptible to collapse and turbulence etc. 300 jumps shold be enough to go to 1.4-1.5 w/l if you are current enough, but i think 1.6 is a little too drastic

If I were anything below 1.8 today I would be jumping an airlocked canopy. IT's just safer and better in turbulence.. At the lower loadings of 1.2 or less I would be on a seven cell like a triathlon.

Rhino

[jumpwally 0]

I would suggest getting your legal matters in order first. Make sure your have top of the line Medical Insurance and Disability in addition.

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[mdrejhon 8]

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Swooping at 1.23-1.3 to me is very dangerous. 1.6 on a sabre2 is perfect with a longer recovery arc and better performance from his canopy. 1.6 should do him fine with a plan and coaching. IF he head is in the right place..

Whaaaaat....

I don't hear that from Scott or Brian...

Sometime, I'd like some canopy coach teach me swooping (double fronts straight-in to begin with, then eventually 90's) and I think I'd do it with my existing 1.1 WL Sabre 170.

(Maybe after 300 more jumps, maybe sooner, but it'd definitely have to be from a good canopy coach)

Someone will have to correct me if I am wrong about swooping underloaded canopies (at least when only doing double-fronts and 90's), but I haven't heard from Brian or Scott that it's more dangerous to start the learning process for swooping while still at only 1.1 after becoming throughly familiar with it in a non-swooping manner. Nontheless, I'll cross the bridge when I get there and get canopy coaching...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Swooping at 1.23-1.3 to me is very dangerous. 1.6 on a sabre2 is perfect with a longer recovery arc and better performance from his canopy. 1.6 should do him fine with a plan and coaching. IF he head is in the right place..

Whaaaaat....

I don't hear that from Scott or Brian...

Sometime, I'd like some canopy coach teach me swooping (double fronts straight-in to begin with, then eventually 90's) and I think I'd do it with my existing 1.1 WL Sabre 170.

(Maybe after 300 more jumps, maybe sooner, but it'd definitely have to be from a good canopy coach)

Nobody wants to see low-timers doing 270s on large lightly loaded canopies. But I disagree with people like Rhino who say people shouldn't be learning to swoop with lightly loaded canopies. In fact if someone wants to learn to swoop then they need to learn on larger canopies first. Start with double fronts, 45s, 90s and work you way to 180s. Dedicate jumps to canopy control (hop n' pops and pulling high) and by all means (this is where I do agree with Rhino), get coaching. Besides practicing a lot, I have received some form of canopy control coaching on 4 different occasions and it has been a huge influence in my progression as a swooper. I still have tons of work to do (I'm mathematically still alive in my regional CPC circuit but I'm basically done for the year unless I can pull a rabit out of the hat on our final comp). But I am happy with where I am as a swooper and while I did downsize faster than the canopy nazis wanted me to, I DID NOT CUT ANY CORNERS in my canopy progression and training.

So in summary, if someone wants to learn to be a swooper, they need to know that there are no short cuts and they really should be learning the basics on lighter loaded canopies before they pull out the pocket rocket. When they're ready to start doing 270s and higher, then they will have already built a good foundation of skill and experience on larger canopies. You don't need a small canopy to swoop. If you don't believe me, I'd like to show you on one of my bigger canopies, but better yet just download the video of Scott Miller swooping a Navigator to know what I mean.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mdrejhon 8]

Thanks! I realize I have to take things with a grain of salt on this forum, but it did give me a good question to ask a future canopy coach - "What are the special considerations I should keep in mind when swooping a lightly loaded canopy?"

In any case, I find I am requesting higher altitude pulls (Usually 4.5K and 5K) and enjoy the canopy flight. Partially because this is my new rig. (Half pratice tasks, half just plain fun play). I'd love to pull at 13500 feet sometime, if they'd let me.

[hookncrater 0]

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"What are the special considerations I should keep in mind when swooping a lightly loaded canopy?"

Insanely high riser pressure for one. Next time you are "playing" with your canopy up high try to do a 270° front riser turn. At 1.1 the riser pressure is so high that the canopy pulls out of the dive whether you want it to or not. Trying to extend a dive after a >180° turn with double-front risers is effectively impossible and harness input is extremely mushy and/or ineffective.

________________________________________________________________________________
when in doubt... hook it!

[mdrejhon 8]

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Insanely high riser pressure for one. Next time you are "playing" with your canopy up high try to do a 270° front riser turn. At 1.1 the riser pressure is so high that the canopy pulls out of the dive whether you want it to or not. Trying to extend a dive after a >180° turn with double-front risers is effectively impossible and harness input is extremely mushy and/or ineffective.

Good one. I noticed already a bunch of jumps ago. Though, I wouldn't be doing 270's under this canopy. (I don't think 0's, 45's, 90's and even 180's are out of the question, but I'll find out from a canopy coach when the time comes...) Just the beginning part of the swoop learning process, essentially...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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At 1.1 the riser pressure is so high that the canopy pulls out of the dive whether you want it to or not.

Obviously the riser pressure on a large canopy will be more noticable, but every canopy will load up to the point where you can't hold it. Take your canopy up high and do this as a drill to know what I mean. Start your riser turn and try and hold it. After a while (a while will depend on the canopy) you just can't hold it any longer (even on a small pocket rocket crossbraced canopy).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rhino 0]

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Obviously the riser pressure on a large canopy will be more noticable,

AND if he gets in the corner he is low and slow under a wing that won't turn a corner if told to do so in time. It's not safe. Under what he is flying he should not be doing more than double fronts and let up at 50 feet or so. Learning to fly the canopy with extra energy on landing.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Being in the corner under any canopy is a bad place to be. This is why people being coached on high performance canopy flight are taught how to find the performance envelope of their canopy and to find it first at altitude before bringing it down close to the ground. But it sounds like you're saying that being in the corner of a higher loaded canopy (when things happen faster than someone may be able to react to) is a better place to be than being in the corner of a larger wing? Hmmm ... sounds like a receipt for disaster. I have no argument that people learning to swoop shouldn't be going big (doing things like 270s) and yes the first step is to do double fronts. But I'm on the side that believes that people should learn the fundamentals of swooping on larger canopies before they start using smaller ones. This way they can gradually build up their skills.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[marks 0]

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Swooping at 1.23-1.3 to me is very dangerous. 1.6 on a sabre2 is perfect with a longer recovery arc and better performance from his canopy. 1.6 should do him fine with a plan and coaching. IF he head is in the right place..

Whaaaaat....

I don't hear that from Scott or Brian...

Sometime, I'd like some canopy coach teach me swooping (double fronts straight-in to begin with, then eventually 90's) and I think I'd do it with my existing 1.1 WL Sabre 170.

(Maybe after 300 more jumps, maybe sooner, but it'd definitely have to be from a good canopy coach)

Someone will have to correct me if I am wrong about swooping underloaded canopies (at least when only doing double-fronts and 90's), but I haven't heard from Brian or Scott that it's more dangerous to start the learning process for swooping while still at only 1.1 after becoming throughly familiar with it in a non-swooping manner. Nontheless, I'll cross the bridge when I get there and get canopy coaching...

there is a very LARGE difference in learning how to fly your canopy, and learning how to swoop.

[rhino 0]

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But I'm on the side that believes that people should learn the fundamentals of swooping

Now we are getting somewhere.. Let's get the fundamentals of swooping defined.. What do you think they are?

I think it starts with slow speed flight and accuracy. I think it starts with using front risers not to swoop or gain speed but to get out of the air under a bigger canopy on high wind days to keep from going backwards. I was on a Falcon220 in Texas. The only reason I didn't bust my ass in a cow field is because I was able to s-turn with front risers and get my airspeed high enough to not be going backwards on landing.

That's what people should work on first? I don't hear any of these people saying what they used front risers for first? If they started in double fronts just to swoop they missed a step and are wrong. They should first be learned to get out of the air quickly for safety reasons.

Stage 1
a. Flat Turns with minimal loss of altitude (doing nothing but flying around on the slow speed edge of the wing and getting very familiar with it's tendencies)
b. Accuracy in "full flight" (hitting the p's)
c. Sinking in on the p's, "slow flight"
d. Front risers ONLY to get out of high winds
e. Planned primary and secondary flight pattern based on traffic (if you fail to plan you are planning to fail)
d. Walking the intended landing area and checking for obstacles, picking up debris.
e. Knowing wing direction (uppers and lowers) and knowing where rotors might be coming from.
f. Not flying over anything they won't be happy landing in.

and on and on and on and on...

This is just stage 1... Jumper should be able to have 20/20 standup landings before we get into stage 2. 100% stand-ups with no exceptions.

Let's hash this out and get a progression laid out that we can all at least partially agree on.

Rhino

[mdrejhon 8]

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there is a very LARGE difference in learning how to fly your canopy, and learning how to swoop.

I realize that. I'm going to become fully familiar with this canopy first (the checklist). That may take a long time. For now, I'm just on angle control, and working on improving my zero wind landings, plus various types of flare/stall/braked/flat turns pratice at play altitude.

I'm just saying, I definitely want to learn swooping -- eventually. All the multi-hundred-jump regulars at my dropzone are doing it (Mostly 180's) and I know it looks dangerous. I'll wait until I'm ready.

If the canopy coaches tell me 90's and 180's are unsafe with my particular canopy, then I won't learn those until I'm on a canopy that's ready for those. I'll cross that bridge when I get there. However, I definitely want to start the beginning process of learning front risers in landing approaches, before I downsize.

[dharma1976 0]

dude I weighed a 170 sabre 2 out the door at 205 and I got some nice swoops on it, learned how to actually eek out the performance of that, and then downsized after 200 jump son it this season. You might want to try learning on the 170, I did, and I think it might have saved my other fibula.

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[dharma1976 0]

Tell that to allen at perris, he was just like you, now he has wheels for legs. It all starts because we think we know better than the people who have seen guys lik eus do the exact same thing, insanity is us expecting different results.

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[hookitt 1]

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Swooping at 1.23-1.3 to me is very dangerous.

When you have a couple thousand jumps, you'll realize the error of that comment.

Until then... carry on.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[demoss99 0]

OK - I've been following this thread this afternoon and have a question just for my own education. I am low time - less than 100 jumps. I am 170 out the door - loaded 1.06 on a Triathlon 160. I am working on the various checklist with a coach and the S&TA. I'm quite happy where I am with my nice square forgiving canopy. I'm conservative and not looking to progress too fast etc... I progressed from the 200+ sq ft student canopies to a 190 to a 160. I have a long time to go to think about this but.....

Question: Where would you experienced jumpers suggest I go next when I am eventually ready to downsize and get into more advanced canpopy piloting? I would like to hear canopy and size opinons. Thanks for the suggestions.

"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."