Getting into higher performance landings....

[ManFallDown 0]

I am looking to downsize my current main
(Sabre 2 190) to a Sabre 2 150 to eek out some more performance from my canopy rides.
I have worked hard under my 190 to hone safety skills, landing skills and performance turns........but feel I would like something smaller as the next step...
I demoed a 170 but to be honest it did not feel much different and so am looking at a 150 to spend a solid amount of time learning the 'art'
I will combine this next downsize with a container change as well....so getting the size right will be important ( secondary to safety of course)

My questions to you experienced canopy handlers are:
1) Do you think this downsize is too aggressive ? ( my exit weight is about 240)
2) Do you think someone with my jump numbers / wingloading has any business on a 150
3) PD posts a MSW of 244 for a 150 canopy.......I was let to believe that this MSW is exceeded regularly without incident....is this correct
3) Are there any other canopy recommendations you could suggest....Safire,Hornet , Electra , Crossfire

I'm not trolling......just looking for considered opinions...

'tanks

[Peej 0]

Hey dude

In no way am i an experienced canopy pilot and some might disagree but your exit weight of 240 will put you at a WL of 1.6, which might be a little extreme for your current experience level.

Here are some questions for you to consider:

How current are you? Have you recieved canopy coaching? How much time will you dedicate to high altitude H+P's? These are all factors in you landing that canopy successfully every time.

I'd suggest spending some time on a rental 170, learn to fly the piss out of it before you downsize. Also, have a look at Bill Von's Downsize checklist and read the Parachute and It's Pilot by Brian germain, they contain a list of essential skills that everyone should have mastered before they think about downsizing.

As for other canopies to check out: look at the Safire 2 from Icarus, the Pilot from Aerodyne and the Fusion from Precision. The Crossfire is not for you at that loading vs experience.

Take care out there
PJ

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[davelepka 4]

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I demoed a 170 but to be honest it did not feel much different and so am looking at a 150 to spend a solid amount of time learning the 'art'

Keep in mind that the canopy and the ground have no idea of your good intentions. No matter how dedicated you think you are, or how safe you plan to be, once you leave the plane, you've got to land what's in your rig.

Bad spots, wind shifts or gusts, turbulance, or traffic are all considerations. Choose your equipment based on what you can successfully fly through all of the above situations.

Pushing the limits on WL, and skipping sizes when downsizing have been the root cause of many incidents, many with severe/premanent consequenses.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I may currently be swooping a relatively small pocket rocket. But I learned to swoop on bigger canopies first. In fact my old Sabre2 190 and 170 canopies respectively set the ground work for where I am today. Some people are better under canopy than others, but there are no short cuts to swooping. Swooping itself is not safe. But to skip a step in your downsizing progression is just asking for trouble. Just my two cents of course. If you're set on downsizing, you won't be listened to anyone regardless.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Tonto 1]

Going from 1.26 to 1.6 is a huge jump.

Listen to what Peej has said, as he already has the titanium, so speaks with some authority on these issues after following a similar path to the one you propose.

Since you're also changing your container, consider the wing loading on your reserve of choice too, bearing in mind that non ZP, low aspect ratio 7 cells don't offer the flare power you're accustomed to at similar loadings, and you will be lower than you intended to be when you use your reserve.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[hippydiver 0]

I am currently learning to swoop on a Safire1 loaded at 1.25 to 1.3 (depending how much beer I consume month to month) and having a blast with it. It recovers fast to get me out if I screw up, but I can cover a lot of ground with it when I do right. I'm no expert, but I'd say jumping to a 1.6 on a Sabre2 is aggressive if you really only have 300 jumps. I'll probably spend at least 500 more jumps at 1.3 on my Safire before I downsize and still be having fun.

EDITED TO ADD: I don't know if you've tried it, but loosening my chest strap all the way and stowing my slider behind my head has added a ton of performance as well.

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gravity rat formula 109
Team Gonzo and Team Jamaican Me Crazy
no bullshit, let's just fly, be safe, and have fun.

[rhino 0]

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but I'd say jumping to a 1.6 on a Sabre2 is aggressive if you really only have 300 jumps.

Depends on his coaching and standup landings. Has he mastered slow speed flight yet before going fast?

Just started jumping my FX86 at 2.2 this weekend. All I did was a TON of flat turns, stalls, sinking and riding the slow speed rail.. I have to know when it can do. Drop it in a back yard if I need to.

At 300 jumps I was on a Diablo110 at 1.8. Had all standups and great coaching.

Who is coaching this gentleman? What has he learned? How many hop-n-pops from altitude has he done to get the feel for his canopies?

Swooping at 1.23-1.3 to me is very dangerous. 1.6 on a sabre2 is perfect with a longer recovery arc and better performance from his canopy. 1.6 should do him fine with a plan and coaching. IF he head is in the right place..

That cool video shit kills people!

Rhino

[popeyefireman 0]

To start with I am not a swooper. I wanted to down size a little while ago. I went from a 190 triathlon to a 159 safire2. my exit wieght at the time was 245. Now I new that that WL was unacceptable to my experiance level. But I also knew that the size and WL are not the only thing that changes canopy preformance. So in order for me to get this new canopy I droped 30lb, that way my WL in the same. But I did notice a huge change just by canopy design. So maybe you could try something similar to that, but talk to a coach as I did when i did all this.


Adam

"I Yam what I Yam"

I am not afriad to die, only to die without living.

[rhino 0]

If you aren't swooping their really isn't any reason for you to go smaller. 1.2-1.3 where you are should do you fine.

[NeedToJump 0]

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Swooping at 1.23-1.3 to me is very dangerous.

I highly disagree with this. I started learning to swoop on an original Sabre (not Sabre2) loaded at 1.1. From there I went to a 1.26 w/l and now jump a 1.4 w/l. The close calls that I had early on in my swooping would have been much more serious under a higher w/l, I'm very glad I didn't rush my progression more than I did. In fact, I wish I had taken it slower.

ManFallDown - There is absolutely no need to rush into downsizing. To answer your questions:

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1) Do you think this downsize is too aggressive ? ( my exit weight is about 240)

Based on your jump numbers, yes, this sounds like a *Very* aggressive downsize. That's not to say you couldn't handle it, there's just no need to. I currently jump at a 1.4 w/l and didn't get on that wing loading until jump 612. The canopy size definitely makes a difference (I load a 120 at 1.4) but loading a 150 at 1.6 with 300 jumps is a very high wing loading.

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2) Do you think someone with my jump numbers / wingloading has any business on a 150

My honest response to this is no. I don't think anyone with 300 jumps should be at a 1.6 wing loading regardless of canopy size. Unless all you are doing is coached hop and pops, there's just no need to add in the additional risks of that high of a wing loading. Again, this doesn't mean that people can't do it, I just don't see the point.

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3) PD posts a MSW of 244 for a 150 canopy.......I was let to believe that this MSW is exceeded regularly without incident....is this correct

PD lists the max weight for a Sabre2-150 at 240 lbs here. Regardless of whether the MSW is exceeded regularly or not does not mean it is safe to do so. It's curious that you'll quote the max weight for the canopy but not the other weights. I'll list them here for a Sabre2-150 (straight from the PD website):
Novice - 135 lbs
Intermediate - 150 lbs
Advanced - 165 lbs
Expert - 195 lbs
Maximum - 240 lbs

Do you consider yourself an advanced canopy pilot? Do you consider yourself an expert canopy pilot? If you answered no to either of these questions then why are you thinking about going so far over PD recommendations? PD designs and builds these canopies, their test jumpers put hundreds if not thousands of jumps on them. The numbers they list for wingloading are not picked out at random, these numbers represent what the people who jump these canopies everyday for a living think of the canopy.

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3) Are there any other canopy recommendations you could suggest....Safire,Hornet , Electra , Crossfire

The SafireII and the Lotus are both excellent canopies in the class you are looking at. I would stay away from the Crossfire2 for a few hundred more jumps, especially if you are planning to downsize.


Please thing about why you are downsizing and what your goals are. Do you *need* to downsize? Do you feel that you can do so safely? Talk to a qualified canopy coach at your dropzone, see what recommendations you are given. I've heard a lot of people regret downsizing for one reason or anther and many people get hurt doing so.

I'm not trying to flame you at all, just giving you my opinion. Whatever you decide to do please be safe.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[nicknitro71 0]

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Swooping at 1.23-1.3 to me is very dangerous. 1.6 on a sabre2 is perfect with a longer recovery arc and better performance from his canopy. 1.6 should do him fine with a plan and coaching

Wow, that's profound.

Students listen up:

You should go from a WL of 0.6 with student gear to 1.6 in one step if you want to get into swooping.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[hippydiver 0]

I hate to hijack the thread, and perhaps this is a discussion for a new thread, but i don't quite get the statement:

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Swooping at 1.23-1.3 to me is very dangerous.

My wing loading and canopy choice have saved my butt on 1 or 2 low-turns while learning and putting myself into a bad spot on approach. Could any of the highly experienced canopy pilots out there give their opinions on this? I've never heard/read any of the top guys say learning to swoop at 1.23-1.3 WL is a dangerous thing??? Most of the really good swoopers I know personally have said they were at 1.2 or so for most of their first 1000 jumps.

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gravity rat formula 109
Team Gonzo and Team Jamaican Me Crazy
no bullshit, let's just fly, be safe, and have fun.

[rhino 0]

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Wow, that's profound.

Students listen up:

He's not swooping so it isn't an issue. Shorter recovery arcs are dangerous in my opinion. I don't care who disagrees. At 1.6 I can start my turn at 4-500 feet. At 1.2 I'm 2-250 feet with a mushy canopy over my head and very little altutude to work with.

I bounced at 1.2 under a triathlon. Got my ass chewed because I was flying a canopy that wasn't meant to be swooped. Recover arc was much too shallow.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think at 300 jumps if his record and training is good 1.6 is too much. However like I said. If he's not swooping their is no reason for him to downsize like that or even be under that loading.... When I got serious about swooping I was instructed to go between 1.4-1.6 wing loading for the recovery arc. Not killing myself while going through that process was due to common sense and the coaching I was getting. Coaching is EXTREMELY important.

Rhino

[rhino 0]

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My wing loading and canopy choice have saved my butt on 1 or 2 low-turns while learning and putting myself into a bad spot on approach.

Then you need to upsize. The fact that you are getting into tight spots under bigger canopies without swooping speaks to your judgement and training. DO NOT downsize. Take a canopy course and learn to fly slow. Learn to flat turn. Learn what the rock point of your canopy is. The questions you are asking are good but insecure in nature. If you don't understand some of the basic things that are being said in here you are by no means ready to get under a higher wing loading. GO BIG.

[hippydiver 0]

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DO NOT downsize. If you don't understand some of the basic things that are being said in here you are by no means ready to get under a higher wing loading. GO BIG.

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Shorter recovery arcs are dangerous in my opinion. I don't care who disagrees. At 1.6 I can start my turn at 4-500 feet. At 1.2 I'm 2-250 feet with a mushy canopy over my head and very little altutude to work with.

I bounced at 1.2 under a triathlon.

I start my front-riser turn at 400-450 feet on my Safire1 loaded at 1.3 and the canopy is far from mushy, but I completely understand what you are saying....now. That's why I asked

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gravity rat formula 109
Team Gonzo and Team Jamaican Me Crazy
no bullshit, let's just fly, be safe, and have fun.

[rhino 0]

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I start my front-riser turn at 400-450 feet on my Safire1 loaded at 1.3

Safire always a nice diving canopy. Sorry I'm getting people mixed up on here. That canopy might not feel mushy to you now.. If you knew what a canopy at 2.0 felt like you would know what I mean.

The smaller I've gone the easier the canopies get to fly. My opinion. Where I am at now for example.. I thought the Crossfire2 at 2.0 was responsive. Well it was very responsive actually. VERY. The FX86 I am on now beats it by probably 20% in all avenues. As I progress I'm amazed at the capability of these wings..

[frost 1]

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Swooping at 1.23-1.3 to me is very dangerous.

Rhino

Is that why you jumping a 2.2 loaded cross braced canopy with 700 jumps over 7 years?

So many 1000 jump wonders giving advice... it's scary

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[marks 0]

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Swooping at 1.23-1.3 to me is very dangerous.

Rhino

Is that why you jumping a 2.2 loaded cross braced canopy with 700 jumps over 7 years?

So many 1000 jump wonders giving advice... it's scary

i was talking with rhino about possibly buying my 87 vx and my 84 velo.

he comes with some very good referances. although i havent seen him land, i have discussed his ability's with some VERY well respected peeps.

he has alot ot learn, and so do we all.

im thinking he is more excited them me though!

no way dude. not possible!

[davelepka 4]

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At 300 jumps I was on a Diablo110 at 1.8. Had all standups and great coaching.

1.6 on a sabre2 is perfect with a longer recovery arc and better performance from his canopy.

1.6 should do him fine with a plan and coaching.

There are some people out there who are good canopy pilots at an early stage. They have the right combination of attitude, exposure to good coaching/mentoring, the right level of awareness and perpection, and some luck. These people are OK on more aggressive canopies at higher WL than most. You may even be one of those people (your jump numbers and the apparent respect of your peers seems to support this).

As good a canopy pilot as you may be, you sure suck at giving advice. YOU were fine at 1.8 with 300 jumps, and this guy will be too IF he has a PLAN and COACHING. So your assumption is that this guy has all of the qualities listed above (like you) and he will have a plan and coaching, which he may. But if he lacks one (more likely several) of those things, he may not be OK. This is the key point. You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions in giving your advice, and there's a chance that the recipient only heard, "...blah, blah, you'll be OK, blah, blah..".

After I first read your post, I thought that you had too many jumps at a high WL, and had forgotten what it was like in the beginning. Lots of guys will lose respect for a 135, or a WL of 1.5 or 1.6 beacuase they've been jumping a sub 100 at 2.2 for so long, they forget how much that is for a newer pilot.

Your problem seems to be that you don't have enough jumps at that WL to give the right advice. You're definatley ahead of the curve, and seemingly doing pretty well. You're the exception. Others aren't like you, and need to be advised accordingly. If you've seen a friend get busted up under a good canopy, you know it's a bad deal for all involved. Imagine now if that guy was following your advice, and got in over his head. What then?

[marks 0]

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As good a canopy pilot as you may be, you sure suck at giving advice.

i do to.

but that is somthing that is learned. he will get better, im sure.

[davelepka 4]

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but that is somthing that is learned. he will get better, im sure

The oracle has spoken. He is the chosen one.

[marks 0]

lol...

there is no spoon!

no

there is no ZONE!

[rhino 0]

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they forget how much that is for a newer pilot.

Understandable. That's why I push coaching. Progressing at the rate I have would not have been possible without Charlie Mullins and Derek V. (hooksnswoop).

The problem is people starting to swoop take advice from too many people at once. I picked my coaches. Charlie was (obviously) the best at what he was doing "Mullins DZ use to be my home" and Derek (hooksnswoop) had a perfect safety record flying a vx60. Not only that he was "is" one of the most intelligent (IQ AND Common Sense) people I've ever known.

He didn't JUST say get under a wing at 1.4-1.6.. I was given instructions and drills on planning my outs. Where to fly. Where not to fly. Walking my runway before swooping. Primary and secondary swoop lanes. When to abort (if ANYTHING doesn't feel wrong). Not to swoop if I am feeling under the weather. So many things MUST be right and all it takes is ONE thing to go wrong and it's over. I take canopy flying VERY seriously. Do the math, at 800 jumps (600 being hop-n-pops from 14k) I probably have more canopy time then most people. That's not bragging. I WORK at flying my canopy. I love it. It's the only reason I jump out dem planes!

I would like nothing more than to some day be a canopy coach and teach people the same things I was drilled on early.

I understand completely that I am an absolute EMBRYO in swooping. I'm a white belt for Gods sake. I have everything to learn and very little to offer. All I do when offering advice is passing the things I learned from people like Charlie Mullins (vx59) and Derek (vx60). I am speaking of what I learned from them. And not a damned person on this forum can say they didn't and don't know what they are doing.

Luck. Hard work. Humility. Common Sense. Good coaching. Self honesty. Great depth perception. Preflight routine. Plan. All necessary and equally important.

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Imagine now if that guy was following your advice, and got in over his head. What then?

(that guy) needs to have a plan. A coach. some patience and a ton of common sense. And with a little luck he won't bounce and his bag of experience will fill up before his bag of luck runs out.

Rhino

[Spizzzarko 0]

ZONE? who said ZONE?

[frost 1]

there are 21 "I"'s in your post... Vanity is my favorite sin.

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.