Visual vs. Digital Altimeter - Swoop entry

[efex 0]

Hey Guys,
I recently started 90 front riser approches after some fantastic coaching by Paul Gurteen. Up until this point I have been creating a visual picture for my home DZ and just using my analog alti as a very rough doubly check (on approaches mostly).
What I would like to know is what use could a digital alitmeter bring to being able to learn to swoop more efficently. I find a sight picture at 40ft for a 90 degree is much easier to get than a visual picture up higher. i.e Do pro swoopers use digital alti's when setting up for 360's and 540's?

many thanks for any input,
Marc

Warwick University Skydiving Club

[superstu 0]

pilots use instruments to land planes, canopy pilots should be using instruments to land their canopies. Personally i have a neptune and i know that when i start my 270 at 680-710' it should be good. so yes, digital altimeters help but don't rely soley off altimeters its good to get a site picture as well.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[Herckydude 0]

Hi, I want to make one small remark. As a pilot I tell you that pilots only use their instruments to land the bird in case of bad weather. If the weather is fine, like it always is when skydiving, you only use your altimeter as a crosscheck, but I would NEVER depend solely on a Neptune or so to start a hook turn. The visual picture should match, remember that an error of 75 ft is within limits for many aircraft, but if you end you hook turn 75 feet to low ... Ouch ... But, I bought one two days ago, and I think I can thrust it, but just be careful. Have fun!!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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pilots use instruments to land planes, canopy pilots should be using instruments to land their canopies.

There is a huge difference in quality of aircraft altimeters and skydiving altimeters. Also, aircraft altimeters have inspection requirements, skydiving altimeters do not.

Do not rely on your altimeter to land by. Your eyes should always be your primary altitude reference.

Derek

[efex 0]

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Hi, I want to make one small remark. As a pilot I tell you that pilots only use their instruments to land the bird in case of bad weather. If the weather is fine, like it always is when skydiving, you only use your altimeter as a crosscheck, but I would NEVER depend solely on a Neptune or so to start a hook turn. The visual picture should match, remember that an error of 75 ft is within limits for many aircraft, but if you end you hook turn 75 feet to low ... Ouch Pirate ... But, I bought one two days ago, and I think I can thrust it, but just be careful. Have fun!!! Wink

Your doing hook turns with 82 jumps? If you do thats great and I appreciate your input, but otherwise I was looking for advice from people who actually have experience of swooping canopies.

Warwick University Skydiving Club

[AggieDave 6]

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Your eyes should always be your primary altitude reference.

Yes, however, a more precise altimeter such as the Neptune can help you dial in your pattern and help you achieve the correct altitude for your point of maneuver. That is said with the understanding that your eyes are always your primary reference and if your eyes tell you you're too low, well then you're too low.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[chachi 0]

i agree with Aggie - how do you build a correct sight picture when you don't even know what that height is (without a neptune) i use it in conjunction with my eyes but they are accurate to 10 feet and i have realized over the last 100 jumps more accurate than my eyes have been in the past. you still guide it around but knowing your at 680 - 720 is a nice range.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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how do you build a correct sight picture when you don't even know what that height is

By seeing the same sight pic every time. What difference does it make if it 600 or 800 feet? As long as it is the same sight pic every time.

Use the altimeter as a tool, but realize it's short comings.

Derek

[efex 0]

Hey guys, really appreciate the input. What do most of you do? Do you replace your analog with a nepture entirely, or do you attach the neptune to a leg strap as ive seen some people do ??

Warwick University Skydiving Club

[ccowden 0]

I use a Suunto Altimax digital for swooping. I use it for reference on my canopy decent and set up. I know where I want to be altitude-wise when I am entering the patern, downwind leg, turning to base, and preparing for my 270. However, once I am lined up and both my visual and digital references are in line, I use strictly visual for initiating my 270. Not only do you not want to be relying on an altimeter for your turn, but you also need to be watching in front of you, around you, and visually initiating your turn so you can be reading what is going on and that everything looks and feels right. Blindly starting a turn to landing just because your altimeter tells you it is time would be a bad habit to develop, in my opinion. But using my digital for set up points and references to set up is just one more tool I like to use to assist in doing so. I think in this manner, a digital can be very helpful and educational for developing those skills. You just should not become dependent on it, as stated above, and make sure YOU are flying your pattern and NOT your altimeter. Also, you need to be very aware of traffic and what is going on in your airspace, and fixating on an altimeter can be dangerous.

This is just my opinion and a brief idea of what I do. I am not saying that you or anyone else is doing the wrong things, I am just offering an insight to what I like to do and what has worked for me.

[chayes12 0]

Neptunes have "swoop mode" Three audible alerts that can be set at whatever altitude you want for the canopy ride. They seem to be very helpfull when swooping, much like freefall audible alerts. If you decide on the ground before you swoop, what place and altitude you want to start your turn at, the audible warning can be a very usefull tool. You don't have to take your eyes off the target to look at your wrist. It becomes a good tool and reference to help with consistency.
Alot of people use audibles in free fall and they are very usefull. It is very very diffcult to tell exactly what altitude you are at during a skydive and during a canopy ride by using your eyes. Many people depend on the audible for break off times. It works with swooping now too :)

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Originally I thought that I needed to dial in my setup altitudes to be in the same part of the sky at the same altitude all the time, jump after jump. But every jump is different and you'll never be at the same part of the sky on every jump. So I've been taught to use a digital altimeter to help me get to my setup point where I have a range of altitudes to work from. And the digital altimeter helps me to know if I've arrived a little lower than optimal (meaning I need a fast turn rate) or higher than optimal (time to whip out my toolbox of tricks to help me get down). But of course once the turn has started, it's all visual and experience knowing when to get off of the risers.

I'm sure that once I've made thousands and thousands of jumps that I will have my site picture dialed in. But my instrument (a Suunto) has helped me immensely with setting up my swoops. One only needs to look at the progression I've made in the last six months (thanks first to advanced coaching, but also using my instrument) to know what I'm talking about.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[efex 0]

What do most of you do? Do you replace your analog with a nepture entirely, or do you attach the neptune to a leg strap as ive seen some people do ??

Warwick University Skydiving Club

[ianmdrennan 2]

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What do most of you do? Do you replace your analog with a nepture entirely, or do you attach the neptune to a leg strap as ive seen some people do ??

I have a wrist mount and a neptune audible with canopy mode. I like the wrist mount, but I've seen one or two people with both a leg and wrist mount. I don't really have an issue seeing my wrist mount so I don't feel a need to get one on my leg.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[CanuckInUSA 0]

My Suunto is attached to a belt that I wear around my waist. This way I can look down at the course as well as look at the Suunto at the same time. I've seen others wear their altimeters on their mud flaps or on one of their leg straps. Still others use the audible features of the Neptune in their helmets.

Of course all I need now is for someone to flame me saying that this is wrong that I need to keep my eyes open for traffic. Well I'm going to save you the post. Well Duh!!! No shit Shirlock that you need to look for traffic. I do all of the above. #1 priority is to watch for traffic. From there I monitor my progression towards my setup point by watching my Suunto and gaging my progression towards my setup point above the swoop course.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Of course all I need now is for someone to flame me saying that this is wrong that I need to keep my eyes open for traffic

You really should watch for traffic

Performance Designs Factory Team

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Smart ass.

How'd the GA CPC event go?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

Great

Waiting for Dave to post the results - don't want to steal any thunder.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AndyMan 7]

A "sight picture" is meaningless until you're able to get it calibrated by an accurate altimeter.

Sight Pictures change as you move to different DZ's, and even as the seasons change at your home DZ.

Of course altimeters fail, and since they're based on air preasure will "wander" a certain amount throughout the day.

Accurate altimeters are fantastic additions to just plain using your eyes when learning accurate initiation altitudes.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[AndyMan 7]

Brian Germain is one of Skydivings most knowledgable canopy pilots, and a great teacher and mentor. We can learn a lot by paying attention.

In this post: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=911101#911101

He says

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I used to be one of them[people who swoop without altimeters]. I have been doing high speed approaches since 1987, and have had to adapt my techniques to the newer canopies. Since they allow for a much higher initiation altitude, I didn't find my consistency until I began setting up using instruments

In this post: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=910886;#910886 he talks about how "Sight pictures" change, and how this fails people who use only their eyes.

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When you are initiating the turn at a high altitude, it is very difficult to be consisent with the height of your initiation. The trap that often befalls swoopers is the profound trust they have in their visual accuity.

Most folks don't even know their altitude of initiation, just the visual experience of it, which changes with the wind conditions. If you make a long radius, high initiation turn for landing, the altimeter can be the difference between going big and merely eeking the turn around because you are underconfident with the altitude of initiation.

In this post http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=931343;#931343 he outlines steps to learn swooping. He suggests "Use you altimeter to train your eyes for the initiation altitude. "

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[efex 0]

Wow, what a post. Thats great advice.

Cheers,
Marc

Warwick University Skydiving Club