Sling shot effect, myth or reality?

[jdfreefly 1]

I have heard people discuss this. The idea being that you dig yourself a little in the corner, and then pull it out.

Supposedly, this will send you into the bottom part of your swoop with more speed. My gut instinct is to say this is incorrect.

This would seem to violate the law of the conservation of energy. Any one out there care to weigh in on this.

If you do pipe up, include whether you have competed in any of the sanctioned swoop events.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hey JD.

It seems there's a really fine line when applying this principal. If we use all of the canopy's recovery arc we're already bleeding off speed by the time we enter the gate. If we shorten it too much and have to dig then we kill the energy we have by plaining out the wing. Somewhere in between these two is 'the powerband/slingshot/etc'. Yes it's a little (and I mean fractional) in the corner, but get it wrong and it's way less efficient that using more of the recovery arc IMO.

Experience:
All but 1 event on the FLCPA 2004
PST advanced qualified pilot

edit: It's basically a juggling act of conserving as much speed as possible while entering the course by not using too much of the recover arc, and not being too low and using too much input.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Canuck 0]

I hope not, otherwise we can expect a whole bunch more injuries/fatalities

I liked it a lot better over the last couple years when the conventional wisdom was that the most efficient swoop was the one where NO digging was involved and came under bigger, more moderately loaded canopies.

Canuck

[raymod2 1]

What is "the corner" anyways? Good luck defining that.

[ccowden 0]

Being "in the corner" is the point where your canopy does not have sufficient altitude to recover from it's dive without you reacting with "saving" inputs. (digging out) Being in the corner results from initiating or holding a turn/dive too low, thus resulting in less than perfect recovery for a good swoop or even a safe landing. If you are just a little too low, or "just in the corner," and you recognize it early enough, you can recover fairly easily by using the inputs available. The "deeper in the corner" you get yourself, the more drastic the inputs will need to be. If you get "too deep in the corner" you will not be able to recover the canopy sufficiently in the altitude available, resulting in a serious injury or even death.

[superstu 0]

huh, what he said.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[raymod2 1]

By your definition then I am "in the corner" on every single one of my landings. If you can get your Velocity to level flight without applying any toggle or rear riser input then I bow to you.

[ccowden 0]

First off, did you really want my answer, or are you just being a smartass? Cuz I took your question seriously.

Second, I didn't say "without using ANY inputs." If you read again more carefully, you will see that I said "without using any saving inputs."

Inputs such as risers and toggles in a fashion which enhances your performance are not "saving" inputs. Inputs in a fashion where you are correcting a mistake or trying to just plain save your ass are what I am referring to.

If you are not "in the corner", the inputs you use are enhancing inputs. If you ARE "in the corner" then the inputs become "saving" inputs.

[raymod2 1]

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If you are not "in the corner", the inputs you use are enhancing inputs. If you ARE "in the corner" then the inputs become "saving" inputs.

I wasn't trying to be a smart ass. When I said good luck defining 'the corner' in the context of this thread I was pointing out that the concept is nebulous. Now you have tried to define 'the corner' as the difference between 'enhancing' inputs and 'saving' inputs. I don't think that defines it any better. Using that definition then wouldn't it be meaningless to say "I increased the length of my swoop by putting myself a little bit in the corner?"

[ccowden 0]

I originally thought that you really didn't understand what was meant by "in the corner." I just tried to describe what I would consider it to be.

Although I understand what Ian is saying, I actually don't agree with his statement of being fractionally in the corner. But that is just because my definition and his may be slightly different. "In the corner" to me, means there was a mistake made. In Ian's definition, the position they are putting themselves in is intentional, thus not fitting my definition.

The way I view it is, if you are in the corner, then you have made a mistake and need to recover from something that was not originally intended. In Ian's description, the technique was intentional and planned, thus not a mistake or a correction. I wouldn't consider this being in the corner. But like I said, I am sure people's definitions vary, so this is just my interpretation.

[ccowden 0]

I think Ian's definition of "in the corner" may be something like being deep into the recovery arc where greater inputs are needed to plane the canopy out.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hey Chris.

Raymod has brought up my terminology and he has a valid point. Instead I'll put up Brian Germains diagram that better describes what I mean (Brian if you disapprove let me know and I'll remove it).

Basically I'm talking about forceably shortening your recovery arc, ever so slightly for maximum ground distance.

To correct my terminology I'd define being in 'the corner' as anything lower than the maximum ground distance your canopy can achieve. Obviously there are varying degrees of such and the danger is exponentially increased with the depth.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[DrewGPM 0]

It's not a perfect translation, but this is how I identify "the corner".

Diving the canopy is like hitting the accelerator on your car...while aiming at a brick wall. As soon as you take your foot off the accelerator, you start to slow down. You will eventually get to the idle speed of your car. Then you can hit the brakes to stop. The distance you cover while you return to idle speed is the recover arch.

If you take your foot off the gas too late, you will hit the wall. So you hit the breaks during the recover arch. You shorten the distance covered before stopping. Now you can leave your foot on the accelerator longer, since you're stopping faster. How hard you have to hit the breaks depends on how fast you're going and where you start to hit them.

If you hit breaks and the stuff in the back seat of the car slide off the seat, you waited too long. You were in the car equilivilent of "the corner". If you stand on the breaks and still hit the wall, you were WAY past the corner.

Under canopy, you can apply a certain amount of rear risers as you come out of the dive. If you have to hit the rear risers real hard, or switch to toggles sooner than you wanted, in order to save yourself...then you were in the corner.

Does that make sense?

The corner changes for each person..depending on a lot of variables. But the idea is that you had to give input that is beyond what you normally use, or face serious injury. That is the corner.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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If you have to hit the rear risers real hard

One should never try to dig themselves out of the corner with their rears. Otherwise I thought your analogy was reasonably good for being (or should I say avoiding) the corner.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[grega 0]

Well you can't really compare the swooping "corner" with the slingshot throw. because the slingshot throw, always exits the "circle" with almost the same speed it had while circling..
Swooping skydiver is not.

I won't say you get more speed or not when you're little in a corner because i don't have enough experience yet.
it seems somewhat logical though, but it all depends on the canopy desing a lot too.
Brian g. explained it all in his latest book. what you want for a long swoop is a lot of horizontal speed. but with the turn you drop and you gain vertical speed. so you have to somehow convert that vertical to horizontal. and if you let you canopy fully recover on itself it will loose a lot of speed in the procces. if you shorten the recovery arc (by pulling out a little) you will loose a lot of speed too, but where you loose more speed it all depends on canopy design, type of turn... this is where i'm too short with my experience and knowledge so i can only guess... and i don't really know how to calculate this in theory, so unless someone here knows how to calcuate this thing, we/you can all just assume the feelings we have about speed in a turn are right...

"George just lucky i guess!"

[ccowden 0]

I don't disagree with your concept, or anyone elses concept of "in the corner." I guess disagree isn't the right word. MY definition just differs. The idea of the slingshot effect, to me, isn't being in the corner. It is just taking the recovery deeper and using more aggressive inputs to pull it out. Yes, it is almost exactly the same thing as what I describe, but the major difference is that a mistake was or was not made. My definition of in the corner implies that the pilot has made a mistake, gotten deeper in the recovery than he/she intended, and must abort the inputs they had originally planned to use in order to "dig" themselves out. This can be subtle or even "life saving."

The area in the recovery we are all describing is the same. It is just my personal opinion that "in the corner" means further than was intended and alternate inputs need to be applied. I could quite possibly be the only person who views it as such, and like I said, this is just my interpretation. I am in no way arguing with yours, just pointing out how mine differs. I don't think there is one be all, end all definition and many interpretations of "in the corner" can exsist.

[marks 0]

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Hey Chris.

Raymod has brought up my terminology and he has a valid point. Instead I'll put up Brian Germains diagram that better describes what I mean (Brian if you disapprove let me know and I'll remove it).

Basically I'm talking about forceably shortening your recovery arc, ever so slightly for maximum ground distance.

To correct my terminology I'd define being in 'the corner' as anything lower than the maximum ground distance your canopy can achieve. Obviously there are varying degrees of such and the danger is exponentially increased with the depth.

Blues,
Ian

so ian.... you dont think its low anymore do ya?

[ianmdrennan 2]

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so ian.... you dont think its low anymore do ya?

Depends on what you mean but if you're referring to what I think you are then no, but it's a fine line to be walking

Performance Designs Factory Team

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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If you have to hit the rear risers real hard

One should never try to dig themselves out of the corner with their rears. Otherwise I thought your analogy was reasonably good for being (or should I say avoiding) the corner.

The "Jay" or "E-line" mod was designed to allow you to get away with exactly that. I don't even know if he uses it anymore, but I sat right there on the ground and had Jay Moledzki tell me the real deal about it at the first swoop meet at ASC a few years ago. The larger canopies being used in competition nowadays are far less susceptible to high speed stalling on forceful application of rears than the smaller canopies of a couple of seasons ago and I cannot remember seeing anyone on tour last year with "E's". Likewise, some competitors are simply willing to let all hang out in the name of victory. I have seen just about every single professional competitor pound in on a run at one time or another; plenty of them on rear stalls. One need only review the footage of Andy Anderson up in Maine or Andy Farrington at SkyQuest for ugly examples. That said, the video footage of Jonathan Tagle at the IPC shows a pretty gnarly rear dig to get him through the gates (sideways!) and back up in the air.

The current vogue definition of "slingshotting" is doing a forceful dig through the gates on rears to pop back up in the air for that elongated, gliding, arc (generally on toggles).

Chuck

[davelepka 4]

This 'in the corner' disagreement sounds similar to the 'hook turn' one that used to be around. To some, a hook turn was just a swoop (maybe a good swoop) while others turned a 'hook turn' into a bad thing, it was low turn with lots of toggle stabbage to get out.

So now, the corner, which started out as a bad place to be, is maybe what you're shooting for. If you go by the old definition, anyone with a Velo at 2.0 or better, is in the corner every time. It's hard to call it the corner, because it's where you need to be everytime, but by the old definition, you are in the corner.

All we have to do is a 'too far' to make it work. As in 'Dude, you were TOO FAR in the corner'.


As for the singshot thing, it seems like it's a narrow window you need to fly through to make it work. Too high, and you miss the effect, too low, and you're too far in the corner.

I see how the recory arc on a Velo is too shallow at the bottom end. You need to be a little low, and use a little input to make it work.

What I see with the sligshot is at the fastest point in your dive, use that engery to make a quick(er) transition to horizontal. Provided that you used less energy than you would have lost to drag if you had used less input later in the dive, you're swooping along with more energy.

The speed will allow your canopy to fly further before additional input (aka drag) is needed, building even greater gains than the longer dive.

An effect that I have also wondered about, is if when pulling out a little sooner, the additional input will accelerate the pilots swing under the canopy, adding momentum that will carry him further forward than the slower recovery. With the pilot further ahead of the canopy, the nose will pitch further up, again, allowing the pilot to fly further before needing additional input to stay level.

It's really just a guess.

[diveout 0]

I totally agree with the last post, it makes sense to me, and I think I've seen it in action by some of the PRO Pilots as well.

I personally get the feeling every once in a while, just before I get to gate level that I'm almost speeding up. The rear risers require a little more of a nudge than usual. If I'm over water I can let up on the rears and drag the surface, but if over dry ground what happens is I'll gain 2 or 3 feet of altitude and have a clearly better than average distance run, for me (a mere mortal) that's anything beyond the 300ft marker-xaos 118@2.2.

There is something that is going on now at the record breaking level that is allowing HUGE distances. Downwind doesn't hurt but the recent record breakers, JC and the PD guys are clearly playing a different game now.

Also, I've flown at 2.5 lb/ft and frankly I don't like it much...the higher loading may add some other part to the whole deal that wasn't considered say, two years ago.


PST: Panama City, SD Oregon, Wildwood
PST#2 overall Advanced Cometitor, 2003
Para-Performance Pro-Blade #130