learning to swoop

[LilZilla 2]

I am just now begining to swoop my canopy (tomcat 150 @ 1.33 wing loading) and am wondering why it is done with the front risers. I've been told by my father (who I got the canopy from) that the front riser turns on that particular canopy where not that great and told me that rear riser turns would work just fine. Whats the difference between the two, and what advise can be given dealing with rear riser swooping. Thanks.

[Tonto 1]

Is this the Tomcat made by Air Time Designs?

Ok. Firstly, no rear riser swoops to landing, OK? Promise me that.

In the old days, swoops were done with toggles. This physically swung the pilot out from under the canopy, and as they pendulumed back, the wing generated some speed that could be converted to lift. Many, many people got themselves into unrecoverable positions and were killed or injured. Some people beleive that front riser turns may prevent this situation, but a quick glance at the incidents forum will show that only the pilot can prevent injury when landing, regardless of the technique used.

Front riser turns can be initiated much higher than toggle turns. This allows the pilot more time to think their way through the turn, and more altitude to allow the canopy to accelerate. If the turn is initiated too low, the pilot has a better chance of digging themselves out of the turn and returning to level wing configuration prior to impact.

Some canopies DO NOT RESPOND WELL to front riser input. I have over 1000 dives on a Jonathan 120 - which I suspect may be the eliptical cousin of your Tomcat, if memory serves correctly. The Jonathan did not enjoy front riser input at all.

Rear risers can be used to steer your canopy prior to the brakes being unstowed, to trim the canopy for flatter glide when flying back from a deep spot upwind, to flare the canopy for landing in the event of a broken or disabled brake, or to further maintain speed/glide after a swoop. I've heard many things in the past 20 years of skydiving. This is my 1st time hearing about rear riser swoops. Be sure you have not misunderstood your dad. Generations tend to misunderstand each other a lot.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[davelepka 4]

Have ever seen your father swoop a canopy?

Have ever seen him swoop that canopy?

Have you ever seen him do it with rear risers?

I haven't.

Maybe lay off the swooping in general for few more jumps. You are loading that canopy up a little, so balance that out by holding off on the swooping a little longer. It will pay off in the end.

[LawnDart21 0]

I'll do my best to keep this constructive & positive

If your jump numbers in your profile are correct, you have just over 100 jumps and have made 40 a year.

To be clear, without being attacking, you have no reason to try swooping at this point. NONE.

Alas, as is most often the case, you will do it anyways, and then in 100 jumps when you "go big" and hook yourself out of your sneakers, you'll post a "LEARN FROM MY MISTAKE" thread like everyone else does.

Think Safety first.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[LilZilla 2]

Ok, my bad. It wasn't rear risers that I meant. What I meant was swooping with the steering lines. I've tried it a few times with 90 degree turns and have noticed that the canopy will swoop alittle. I am taking this slowly and will remain to play it safe so that I wont be a statistic. Thanks for all the advise.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hi
Couple of things I'd suggest:

1) Get a canopy that responds well to front riser input. My personal recommendation right now would be a Sabre2 although the Pilot I flew wasn't bad, I prefer newer canopy characteristics (Longer recovery arc, deep toggle stoke, steeper glider ratio)
2) Don't do toggle hooks. There's plenty of info why on these message boards.
3) I believe we have a CPC meet in Emerald Coast in August. There'll be a lot of us down there at that time, feel free to pick any of our brains about swooping.

See you then, be safe.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Foggy 0]

Bob, I have sent you a PM. What have you done your past 50 jumps on? I believe that you are excessively loading this canopy for your current canopy experience. I strongly suggest working out your canopy skills on a larger canopy. As for not becoming a statistic, BillVon wrote a very good post on "But I'll be really careful" syndrome. Read it.

Foggy

[Remster 30]

And please, learn how to do flat turns before anything else. Learning how to turn low to save your life will one day do just that. People who say they will never turn low and never practice it are often the ones who get hurt when they have to turn low.

Remster

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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In the old days, swoops were done with toggles. This physically swung the pilot out from under the canopy,

Some people beleive that front riser turns may prevent this situation, but a quick glance at the incidents forum will show that only the pilot can prevent injury when landing, regardless of the technique used.

An aggressive front riser turn will get you behind the canopy, swing you back in front, and make holding the dive difficult. A lot of us did this when we didn't know any better. Luck played a part in our survival. A carving turn gives you more outs, lets you start higher, and gives you more speed.

Take courses. You'll learn a lot more from a class than we did with experimentation, in a much safer environment.

And wait. You really need to learn survival skills first - flat turns, turning after plane out, etc. What you do above 1000 feet has a lot to do with your swoop accuracy - getting that nailed first will help a lot.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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An aggressive front riser turn will get you behind the canopy, swing you back in front, and make holding the dive difficult. A lot of us did this when we didn't know any better. Luck played a part in our survival. A carving turn gives you more outs, lets you start higher, and gives you more speed.

My last round of coaching (as well as a conversation with Nick K when he was in town a couple of weekends ago) has been geared towards me breaking my habit of doing long carving turns in favor of a more snappier front riser turn onto final (both Jim and Nick have told me that I will build more speed this way ... both PST swoopers). But I do agree that a carving turn is a good technique for the mid-range swoopers and people learning to swoop.

So I'm not really arguing with your point while I'm arguing your point.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

Dude,
I have gone back and forth on the issue, about snapping, and carving. Now I kind of do both. I start my turn out slow, and get about halfway through my 270, ensure I have enough altitude to finish the turn, and then I snap the last half around. It seems to work for me... We will find out on April 23rd though!!!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Dude,
I have gone back and forth on the issue, about snapping, and carving. Now I kind of do both. I start my turn out slow, and get about halfway through my 270, ensure I have enough altitude to finish the turn, and then I snap the last half around. It seems to work for me... We will find out on April 23rd though!!!

That's the same thing that I'm working on and the same thing that Jim and Nick have told me to do. Practice ... practice ... practice ... and yes April 23rd is around the corner with me looking to (hopefully) finish ahead of people with more experience than myself. Will it happen? Time will tell.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[superstu 0]

who's jim and nick?

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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An aggressive front riser turn will get you behind the canopy,

A carving turn gives you more outs, lets you start higher, and gives you more speed.

My last round of coaching (as well as a conversation with Nick K when he was in town a couple of weekends ago) has been geared towards me breaking my habit of doing long carving turns in favor of a more snappier front riser turn onto final (both Jim and Nick have told me that I will build more speed this way ... both PST swoopers). B

I think getting close to being above the trailing edge is slower because I became faster once I stopped doing it suggesting it's a matter of degree The relationship may not be causal although logic suggests anything that makes you unable to sustain the dive makes for a slower swoop.

My understanding is that the first part of the turn establishes roll angle so your lift vector has a smaller component perpindicular to the ground for a higher terminal velocity, the second part maintains that angle so you continue to accelerate, and the third part lets the canopy flatten out without you adding speed robbing drag. The last two parts get you where you want to be. Seems to work for me although I really should attend another and more thorough canopy workshop.

[Spizzzarko 0]

I think he dropped something... Oh that's it, it was some names...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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who's jim and nick?

Jim Slaton and Nick Kamenski.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[djd 0]

when i started in this sport (profile not correct i had a 9 year lay off) i brought a stlletto 120 after 310 jumps, said id be carefull which i was untill the day something cought my eye after id allready done a toggle turn looked away from my landing spot for what seemed a fraction of a second, well i hit both brakes v hard when i looked back down, lifted my legs, my arse went into 2 foot of sea watter hit the beach under the sea flipped me on to my knees bounced up and did a somersault through my rissers landing on my feet ran up the beach (couldnt stop) and ended up in a bush covered in sand, all in front of 500 people dancing to reggia in swim wear at sbi sebastian. The americans watching thought i was so cool i got beer all night for free (bonus) my boss at the time on the other hand called me allsorts of names im not putting on here and grounded me from jumping my stilletto till we got back to the uk(boooo),(although i understood). i very quickly appreciated that if id done that any were else id be dead or very badly injured, I hope i learnt from this and havent had anything like that happen to me since, im having lessons at the moment in swooping and think anybody who wants to learn should do the same, while i would never tell anybody not to swoop no matter how many jumps id advise them on training, i know cisco the pd factory team cameraman started swooping at well under a 100 jumps so hes proof you can do it early but we thinks he had the best coaching around so listen to others and learn learn learn. be positive but dont go near the corner,lol. blue skies soft sandy landings my darlings.

[chachi 0]

i started doing 90 front risers on a sabre 150 at 43 jumps loaded at 1.2 - i got coached on it and havent looked back and have yet to have a super close call although i did hit some soft dirt hard once that could have broken something. since then i have maintained that if you are going to swoop, go learn from the best.

[djd 0]

spot on you dont need maga amount of jumps just good sound coaching

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[bigorangemd 0]

Swooping amazes me and I wonder if in the DISTANT future I'll have the nads to try it. Don't know, the ground looks like it comes up fast enough under a normal landing. The thought of an intentional hook turn low to the ground makes my skin crawl!

[raymod2 1]

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Swooping amazes me and I wonder if in the DISTANT future I'll have the nads to try it. Don't know, the ground looks like it comes up fast enough under a normal landing. The thought of an intentional hook turn low to the ground makes my skin crawl!

And therein lies the allure.

[djd 0]

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***. The thought of an intentional hook turn low to the ground makes my skin crawl!

the term hook by definition means your doing it wrong, you should be asking how high can i start this turn not how low. blue ones.