Learning to swoop wingloading

[meatbomb 0]

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3. BUMP UP YOUR PULL ALTITUDES, AND YOUR DECISION ALTITUDES. THERE IS NO GAIN SKYDIVING BELOW 3,500'.

More than 300 of my swoops have started with exits at or below this height...did I not gain from them?

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Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[Spizzzarko 0]

Good for you... I also see that you are jumping a crossfire 169 or something like that. The smaller canopy's eat up more altitude very quickly in a malfunction, or diving line twists. Wheather you exited lower than what I have said or not still doesn't make it any safer for you. Someday you will understand what I'm trying to point out.

[meatbomb 0]

I understand what you're trying to point out...
Touch the whole forest, the only time I have had a spinning line twists malfunction, I had deployed at 5"000ft. It took me, whilst fully aware of altitude, 2"000ft to sort it...so I understand the point you're making.

I just wanted to point out that many of us don't have the luxury of being able to say, "I'll always be open by 3"500ft".

Am I a safer swooper having done those 300 odd swoops from exits of 2"200ft-3"500ft, or would I be a safer swooper had I sat on the ground?

As you can tell from my jumps/year, I just manage to maintain 200-250 a year, and this would be cut drastically if I cut out the lower hop'npops...

My constructive criticism would reword your guideline to say:
3. STICK TO YOUR DECISION ALTITUDES. THERE IS NO GAIN FIGHTING TWISTS BELOW 1,500'.

BTW I completely agree on each and every one of your other guidelines

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Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[Spizzzarko 0]

Cool


3. BUMP UP YOUR PULL ALTITUDES, AND YOUR DECISION ALTITUDES. THERE IS NO GAIN SKYDIVING BELOW 3,500'.

Revised

3. ALTHOUGH I CAN NOT TAKE EVERYONES SITUATIONS INTO LIGHT, THERE IS NO GAIN IN CONTINUING TO FREEFALL BELOW 3,500'.


Hope this helps you out.

TAKE HEED

[chachi 0]

what is with this demand on 270's. unless you have mastered 90's, then 180's which i dont know how someone does in 500 jumps what business do you have doing 270's. yes it is an easier setup to hit gates and yes it is a super effective way to build speed but pushing guys into 270's is wrong.

fyi im not the exact best example but i jump a vx94 and am a pretty decent swooper but i have never done a 270 in my career yet. "tossing 270's" in the sky cuz the pro's do them is imo not the best learning approach.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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what is with this demand on 270's. unless you have mastered 90's, then 180's which i dont know how someone does in 500 jumps what business do you have doing 270's.

Mastered is a loaded word meaning different things to different people. Personally I think you should have done 270s on other canopies before you graduated to a cross-braced canopy. But that's just me. I'm sure others will disagree.

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fyi im not the exact best example but i jump a vx94 and am a pretty decent swooper but i have never done a 270 in my career yet.

I can only hope that you are trying to push the limits of your canopy doing 90s and 180s. Otherwise you have no business being under a highly loaded cross-braced canopy to begin with and really should have been learning to push the limits on larger canopies. I have never seen you jump and therefore don't want to judge you (so my comments are more generic rather than specifically geared towards you). But there are way too many people out there jumping cross-braced canopies who don't even come close to pushing the limits of the canopy they are jumping. Personally I feel that cross-braced canopies should only be jumped by those who have pushed the limits of their larger canopies and are now ready to push the performance envelop of the much more efficient cross-braced wing.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

That's a lot of canopy for someone with 750 jumps.

[kelpdiver 2]

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There has been much controversy on this very subject. Parachutist or skydiving magazine had an article on the same subject.

This was Skydiving in January.

[AggieDave 6]

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what is with this demand on 270's. unless you have mastered 90's, then 180's which i dont know how someone does in 500 jumps what business do you have doing 270's. yes it is an easier setup to hit gates and yes it is a super effective way to build speed but pushing guys into 270's is wrong.

fyi im not the exact best example but i jump a vx94 and am a pretty decent swooper but i have never done a 270 in my career yet. "tossing 270's" in the sky cuz the pro's do them is imo not the best learning approach.

Huh. Odd approach.

I do 270s since I found I get the most power, most speed and overall a better swoop for what I enjoy doing. When I started I did a progression, double fronts until I just couldn't get anymore out of the canopy, then did 90s to double fronts until I could just do a 90 and hit it. Then I started extending the turn out little by little so I worked up to 180, then I started working up to 270s. Its taken me (taking my tandem numbers out of it), literally 900 jumps to work up to the level of skill I'm at now. Not saying that I'm some sort of hot shit swooper, no definately not that, I'm still learning and trying to get better. I'm not even the best swooper on my DZ, but I'm getting better.

You know why I'm getting better? I'm pushing myself to learn as much as I can about flying canopies and working on how to fly my canopy the most efficent and safest way.

Its all about a progression and starting that progression on a more forgiving canopy.


As a side note, if you've never done a 270 in your skydiving career, why the hell are you on a VERY high performance canopy? Don't you think you should have learned that aspect of canopy flight before purchasing and flying one of the highest performing canopies on the market?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ianmdrennan 2]

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if you've never done a 270 in your skydiving career, why the hell are you on a VERY high performance canopy?

You do not need to do 270's to get the all the speed out of a cross brace. A well performed 180 is sufficient. Now, there's a reason it's not used in competition and it's a turn I personally hate because of how the pattern has to be flown, but don't think that because someone hasn't done 270's they are/aren't ready for a X-braced.

Just an FYI, Pete Allum did 418 feet last year during a FLCPA meet (distance record for the meet) doing a 180 turn.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AggieDave 6]

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but don't think that because someone hasn't done 270's they are/aren't ready for a X-braced.

Just an FYI, Pete Allum did 418 feet last year during a FLCPA meet (distance record for the meet) doing a 180 turn.

I didn't say that 180s weren't worthwhile, I personally feel like I get more with a 270.

My point isn't just a 270, its that if you've never done a 270, a common approach type for swooping a X-braced canopy, what else has been missed in a canopy progression that may be more important? I personally believe that once you reach a certain point in your canopy progression, you should have a certain amount of skill to move on. That amount of skill means getting the absolute most out of your canopy before you move on. That's why I've refused to let myself downsize yet, I haven't quite gotten the most out of my canopy yet.

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my previous post, sorry about that.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hey Dave,

Some of this I'm addressing as a response to your post, some is just general rambling (don't want you to think I'm saying you don't believe in some things I know you do believe in).

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I didn't say that 180s weren't worthwhile, I personally feel like I get more with a 270.

I agree, like I mention I despise 180's and I think 270's are better for a variety of reasons (for those who think I'm advocating skipping 180's I'm definitely not - they're an important part of the process).

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My point isn't just a 270, its that if you've never done a 270, a common approach type for swooping a X-braced canopy, what else has been missed in a canopy progression that may be more important?

I understand what you're saying, and for the most part I think you have a valid point, but there are plenty of good pilots who have no desire to do 180's and are quite ready for X-braced canopies. I don't think turn degree is necessarily the best benchmark. I believe there are other things to look at as well that are much more important than turn degree.

I hate 180's.

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personally believe that once you reach a certain point in your canopy progression, you should have a certain amount of skill to move on.

I agree 100%.

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That amount of skill means getting the absolute most out of your canopy before you move on. That's why I've refused to let myself downsize yet, I haven't quite gotten the most out of my canopy yet.

Yes and No. No one out there gets 100% of their canopy every time, of course that's no excuse to not strive for it or downsize prematurely but we also have to be realistic with ourselves and others. Somewhere in the middle there's a happy medium.

I hate 180's.

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I guess I wasn't clear enough in my previous post, sorry about that.

No worries Dave, I didn't mean my prior post to "come down on you" I just had a comment to make about 180s (I despise them) that I felt was appropriate to bring up after they were mentioned. I've read enough of your posts to know where you're coming from 99% of the time
Blues,
Ian
ps: Did I mention I despise 180's

Performance Designs Factory Team

[chachi 0]

valid points out of some of you and maybe i didn't explain what i meant to.

my point was that i don't like to see people throwing 270's just becasue the pro's mostly do it. i think people mostly skip over 180's and miss learning a huge part of the site picture. for me i have progressed through canopies under pro advice and pro coaching. that is why i dont do them. i want that last 180 degrees mastered fully before i move on. once you have the most important 180 mastered then when you go to 270 - 360 - 720 ... the most important 180 sight picture is burned into your head.

as far as pattern is concerned i do not do a downwind and 180 pattern, i do a long cross wind like a 270 approcah and then do a turn left downwind a bit then a left 180 - so a typical approach for a 270. i also get a great deal of speed and prefer this approach which is maybe why i have stayed with it for so long - oh about 650 jumps =)

i only think that people rush into doing high degree turns and dont master because they only read about 270's....

[AggieDave 6]

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i only think that people rush into doing high degree turns and dont master because they only read about 270's....

I would agree with you to a point, I (like Ian) am not a big fan of 180s, simply due to the typical flight plan (landing pattern) and the visuals on approach. I also don't feel like I get as much out of my canopy doing a 180 then a 270.

Sorry I jumped on you like that earlier, I know you've done your homework and gotten your coaching. I too am coming from a position similar to yours in the regards that I think people downsize too quickly to be jumping what the pros jump instead of mastering the canopy they have.


You know, if this was done around the bonfire with a couple of beers we would have reached our conclusions in less then 5 minutes. It just takes longer on the 'net sometimes due to the loss of body language and inflection.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[chachi 0]

i didnt think you were jumping on me simply stating your points. and your right, the net does have a way of not bringing out what we really mean.

[raymod2 1]

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i do a long cross wind like a 270 approcah and then do a turn left downwind a bit then a left 180

I agree with you. 270's are for losers. I usually do three 90's. Sometimes I do six 45's. One time I did two 120's followed by a 30. But I never do a 270.