Learning to swoop wingloading

[tetra316 0]

I'm currently jumping a sabre2 135 at about 1.1 and practicing 90 and 180's on landing. I was thinking it would be easier to learn by staying on my 135 until I feel comfortable doing 270s. But a couple people have said it might be better to get a 120 or so if I want to practice hook turns as the canopy will turn and recover faster, making it easier to judge the right height and I won't have to keep it in a dive as long since it will turn faster making it safer because I'm diving it for a shorter time. Does this make sense? I can't remember exactly how it was explained to me. What are your thoughts on this? Should I stick with my current 1.1 wingloading or would increasing it a bit allow me to learn faster?

[AggieDave 6]

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Should I stick with my current 1.1 wingloading or would increasing it a bit allow me to learn faster?

Stick to your current canopy. Get where you're flying it to its fullest then move on. It'll take you a couple of hundred jumps (atleast!) to really get your canopy flying to its fullest speed and potential.

Downsizing to learn how to swoop is backwards and can lead towards serious injury (if you're lucky) or death.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Kris 0]

Going to a smaller canopy will probably increase the rate of turn, if it's the same type of canopy.

However, when you increase wingloading, the recovery is generally longer, not shorter.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[tetra316 0]

What do you think of why I was told a 120 might be better, (because I'm not diving it as long)? Or do you think that makes no difference since my wingloading is only 1.1

[AggieDave 6]

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What do you think of why I was told a 120 might be better, (because I'm not diving it as long)?

I have no clue, none what-so-ever. There are a lot of misconceptions out there about canopy flight, though. I recommend Brian Germain's book as a start to learning the truth.

Oh, and like Kris said, generally speaking, the higher the wingloading the longer the dive will get.

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Or do you think that makes no difference since my wingloading is only 1.1

Don't scoff at 1.1:1 wingloadings. You can still swoop that...not only that but you can still seriously hurt yourself or kill yourself, very easily actually.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Going to a smaller canopy will probably increase the rate of turn

Sorry Kris, but the turn rate is controlled by the pilot not the canopy. A faster turn rate loses less altitude while a slower turn rate loses more. It's all in the pilot's hands.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Of course do this all up high before you bring it low to the ground, but try initiating your turn by leaning in the harness before you start pulling down on a front riser. It might make things a tad easier. But know this. Every canopy will load up at some point where you can no longer hold onto the riser. It may load up a little faster on a canopy with a light wing loading. But even the small highly loaded canopies load up on a front riser dive. Learning to swoop on the 135 (including 270s) will make you the better canopy pilot in the long run and you'll know when you're ready to downsize to the 120 instead of asking us.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[tetra316 0]

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A faster turn rate loses less altitude while a slower turn rate loses more.

I think that's what I was trying to question. Should I be turning faster (losing less altitude) whether on a 135 or 120 or is a slower turn rate (losing more altitude) better for learning.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Sorry Kris, but the turn rate is controlled by the pilot not the canopy. A faster turn rate loses less altitude while a slower turn rate loses more. It's all in the pilot's hands.

You are right, but I think Kris meant the turn rate for the same amount of input and/or the max turn rate of the canopy is higher as you downsize.

Derek

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You need to learn the performance envelop of your canopy before you start doing 270s low to the ground. To do this, you'll need to pull higher than you normally would to get some practice 270s in at altitude. Before you start your hook take notice of the altitude you're at. Then start your turn and try to hold onto your front riser until you can't hold on any more. Once the canopy loads up, let it recover and take notice of how much altitude you lost. Once you've done this a bunch, try to add time to the equation. Do the same drill trying to use the same turn rate and this time take notice of how much time it takes from when you initiate your turn to when the canopy recovers. It should take 5-8 seconds from start to recovery. Do these drills a bunch and try to refine them into 270s. Then at some point you'll be ready to start doing 270s low to the ground.

One point about the turn rate though. Every jump is different as we can never be in the same part of the sky on every jump. So it's important for us to recognize at our setup points whether we've arrived there higher or lower than our ideal setup altitude (learned by learning the performance envelop of our canopy). So if I'm low, then I know I need a faster than normal turn rate to have the canopy finish the hook turn on heading and with enough time for it to recover by itself. And if you find yourself too high, you may want to increase the turn rate to lose the extra altitude. But always err on the side of caution. Swooping is very unforgiving of the errors we can make up there.

Good luck ... have fun ... be smart.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[cloud9 0]

There has been much controversy on this very subject. Parachutist or skydiving magazine had an article on the same subject. The theory being that on a lightly loaded canopy you have to start your 270 turn to close to the ground. That on a heavier loaded canopy you can start your 270 much higher therefore more room for error. The reason for this is the recovery arc of the canopy. The lighter the wing loading the shorter the recovery arc. But of course canopy type has a lot to do with it too. There are people very passionate about each of these theories The ones that believe you should go to a higher wing loading to make 270’s also think you should start over with your new higher wing loading making 90’s and working you way up to 270’s.

Me I don’t swoop and don’t know either way, but I would listen to your instructors, if they have the experience to teach you.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

For me the problem with doing 270s on a larger less wing loaded canopy has everything to do with the smaller performance envelop range. As an example, I've easily got a 100-200 foot window (maybe even more) on my highly loaded cross-braced canopy to play with my turn rate once I get to my setup point. The window on a larger less wing loaded canopy is going to be radically less (maybe only 40 feet). So it's important for those on these larger wings doing 270s to first dial in their canopy performance envelops up high and then recognize whether they are high or low at their setup points.

Oh and the drills I mention above in a previous post should also be used for people working on their 180s. It's really no different (as is it not different for turns above 270).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[tetra316 0]

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The theory being that on a lightly loaded canopy you have to start your 270 turn to close to the ground. That on a heavier loaded canopy you can start your 270 much higher therefore more room for error.

That sounds like what he was trying to expain. I haven't heard much discussion on this. Most advice is simply to the bigger the better when learning to swoop.

[cloud9 0]

I don't know how to make it clickey but if you do a search for Robin Head in the forums you will find a lot of information on this subject. Maybe some one could help out with the clickey thing.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The theory being that on a lightly loaded canopy you have to start your 270 turn to close to the ground. That on a heavier loaded canopy you can start your 270 much higher therefore more room for error.

That sounds like what he was trying to expain. I haven't heard much discussion on this. Most advice is simply to the bigger the better when learning to swoop.

I may get in trouble with the canopy nazis with this post, but canopy type can influence the lost altitude and longer recovery arc more than the canopy size and wing loading, meaning there is more room for error and making it safer. I grew up swooping on large Sabre2s. But I never did 270s ... at least not properly with them. When I wanted the divier canopy, I went to a Crossfire2 and yes downsized at the same time. So maybe you should ask yourself if a change in canopy type is a better option than downsizing? I see that you are a reasonably experienced instructor/coach and I'm willing to bet you have some skilled. So why couldn't you be jumping something like a Crossfire2 129? I'd also include a Katana, but that is a downsize to the 120 contrary to the "learn on a larger canopy attitude" already agreed upon in this thread. But who knows? Talk to the experienced swoopers around you, seek some high performance canopy coaching and why can't a 600 jump instructor/coach be jumping a Crossfire2 and/or Katana canopy if they want to learn 270s. That's what I did.

Have fun ... be smart ...

PS: Steve can now be seen running away from the canopy nazis.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[chachi 0]

my view would slightly differ i suspect from some on this forum but i personally believe if you want to learn to swoop there are particular wings better suited to doing so than others. find a good swooping wing and start with a bigger version of it would be my personal recommendation. stillettos teach poor habits due to short recovery arcs, think hook and pray your brakes save you... while crossfires offer longer recovery arcs.

i do not agree that you should learn to swoop ANY wing. why? so you can learn bad habits and be working on things that will never even be a consideration later?

if your aim is to be a good consitant swooper pick a platform and learn the flight characteristics and then downsize on the same platform. your learning curve will go through the roof because then you will be simply doing the same things only higher and safer as your size decreases. who am i though...

[lewmonst 0]

An important point Robin made in his article was risk vs. benefit... on a canopy that recovers quickly from a dive and is lightly loaded, you add a lot more risk and don't gain much benefit from doing a 270 over a 90. And all of those turns, to get the effectiveness, will have to start closer to the ground than the same turn on a higher loaded and longer diving canopy, so being off by 50 feet on the shallow diving canopy could be 50% off whereas being off by 50 feet on a long diving canopy may be less than 10% off. Such that you have more lead time to realize this and abort, adjust the turn rate or stab out of the dive. It's sort of a catch-22. You certainly shouldn't progress to a higher wingloading and more aggressive canopy until you've mastered the one you're on. But what does "mastering your current canopy entail" really? That's a question for the experts. Some people don't think you have to be able to do a 270 front riser into a swoop on canopies that recover quickly and are lightly loaded for every step in the progression to a smaller or more aggressive canopy. Some do. Whatever you do, just don't die.

peace
lew

ps, i'm not an expert. if you take anything from this post, it should be that you should go to a canopy school and talk to the pros.

http://www.exitshot.com

[nicknitro71 0]

I load my Ace 0.7 and get decent swoops

Memento Audere Semper

903

[davelepka 4]

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Most advice is simply to the bigger the better when learning to swoop.

Often times this advice is being given in regards to canopies with a higher WL than what you are working with. You are currently jumping at 1.1 and looking to move up to 1.23. Even if you consider the smaller size of the canopies, the range is still on the low side of what many swooping WL discussions have been about.

Here's why I think that doing a 270 on a canopy at 1.1 to 1 is not the best idea:

- The turn recovery of the canopy is so fast, that you will have to initiate your turn at a low altitude. While this is true with any turn, the 270 is more complex and requires a higher commitment to the trun (both bad at a low altitiude).

- The riser pressure on a canopy 1.1 will build very quickly through the turn. Should you loose your strength, the let the riser pull out of your hands, you will have a problem because....

- A canopy at 1.1 does not provide sufficient response from a harness turn to effectively control or complete a turn.


If I do a 270, for example, I'll start my turn at 600ish feet. My canopy has enough harness response that I could fly the entire turn without a riser. Once the turn is complete, I have a long dive to ride out while I eyeball the ground. After the first third of this dive, I can assume control of the canopy, and stop the dive fairly quickly. These are all safegaurds that I have in place when I swoop. The physics of a canopy with a lower WL will negate these safegaurds.

Provided that you progress in slow and methodical manner, the 120 would be a fine canopy to progress to. Even doing the 180's on your 135 might be slightly pushing the limits if it's practicality.

Of course, others seems to think otherwise. Please consult the best canopy pilot you know who has seen you fly, and carefully consider all opinions.

[tetra316 0]

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if you take anything from this post, it should be that you should go to a canopy school and talk to the pros.

I plan on going to Brian Germains canopy course in June, just searching for the different ideas out there.

[SCR10480 0]

Hi Tara!

You are a VERY good canopy pilot, and an awesome skydiver. I know that there are some seriously good swoopers at your DZ too, and feel certain that they will try to lead you in the right direction. However, I also feel like you should read Brian Germain's book, "The Parachute and it's Pilot" for some real insight into becoming more proficient. I have a copy I will gladly loan you.

Pigpen

[tetra316 0]

Thanks! Do you know if his book is included in the price when you go to his course? Of course the next time your over this way I'd love to borrow it.

[Spizzzarko 0]

But a couple people have said it might be better to get a 120 or so if I want to practice hook turns as the canopy will turn and recover faster, making it easier to judge the right height and I won't have to keep it in a dive as long since it will turn faster making it safer because I'm diving it for a shorter time


This logic is just assignine... If you listen to these people then you can get yourself killed. It's just like the blind leading the blind. Take a step back from the situation, and think about what you just said. If you think for a second that it doesn't sound stupid, then maybe you had better take a long look at what your doing in the sport and why.


For every one out there:

1. YOU DO NOT NEED A SMALLER CANOPY TO LEARN HOW TO SWOOP.

2. LEARN THE BASICS FIRST, THEY WILL SAVE YOU LATER.

3. BUMP UP YOUR PULL ALTITUDES, AND YOUR DECISION ALTITUDES. THERE IS NO GAIN SKYDIVING BELOW 3,500'.

4. DON'T LISTEN TO EVERY DUMBASS AT YOUR DZ, OR HERE ON DZ.COM. A LOT OF THEM HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

5. SPEND THE MONEY, AND GET GOOD CANOPY COACHING.

6. ALWAYS FLY YOUR CANOPY, DO NOT LET IT FLY YOU INTO A BAD SITUATION.

7. MAINTAIN A HIGH LEVEL OF SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. OPEN YOUR EYES AND LOOK AROUND DURING CANOPY FLIGHT.

8. KEEP YOUR GEAR IN TOP CONDITION. REPLACE YOUR LINES OFTEN AND BUY QUALITY GEAR TO INCLUDE A GOOD HELMET.

9. DO NOT FLY INTO THE EARTH AT A HIGH RATE OF SPEED. IT HURTS, AND YOU DO NOT PICK UP THE CHICKADEES THAT WAY. YOU CAN ONLY GET SO MUCH SYMPATHY SEX. THE DUDES ON THE WINNERS PLATFORM GET MUCH MORE SEX, THAN THE BROKEN DUDES.

10. THINK BEFORE YOU TURN. HURTING YOURSELF IS ONE THING, BUT HURTING OTHERS IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.


Consider this your code of swooping conduct. Good luck.

[AggieDave 6]

I was doing 270s on my Heatwave 170 and the Sabre2 170s and Sabre2 190s I would jump on occasion as well. I can't remember the exact altitude I tossed out a turn, but it was around 400-450ft for how I did the turn.

Even "that low" you can still tell if you're getting in the corner after making your first 90 of the 270 and you can bail. You're moving at a slower airspeed so you can still see it coming and can bail.

Just because its big, doesn't mean it won't swoop and if a 270 is what you do your best with, then learn how to do it right for your skills and canopy.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[davelepka 4]

Lets not forget your Wl on those canpoies.

Lets also not forget your higher than average upper body strength. Your level of command over the situation will extend well past that of a mere mortal (like skinny guys and girls).