What do you all think of Robin Head's article in Skydiving?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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for example a 90 left toggle would take the pilot blah blah wherever.. but a front riser 90 at the same speed of input would swing the pilot a little less further out from under the canopy if i'm making any sence?

You can swing out from under a canopy the same amount whether you use a toggle or a riser. The difference is you get a lot more speed with the front riser, allowing you to iniate the manuever higher than with a toggle.

Derek

[Bartje 0]

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You can swing out from under a canopy the same amount whether you use a toggle or a riser. The difference is you get a lot more speed with the front riser, allowing you to iniate the manuever higher than with a toggle.

It is not only the extra speed that you win with a riserturn, you do not loose any lift in your canopy. If you go on your toggles, you deform your canopy to turn and loose lift at that time.
And no, with a riser turn you stay more under your canopy than during a toggle turn. If you Swing out more, than I think you need longer steering lines, perhaps you pull the riser to deep and puling that way as well on your steering lines.
During the the riser turn it is not you going around your canopy, it is the canopy going around you. Your body possition under canopy will stay more in the collum.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[Hooknswoop 19]

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It is not only the extra speed that you win with a riserturn, you do not loose any lift in your canopy. If you go on your toggles, you deform your canopy to turn and loose lift at that time.

Lose lift? How do you gain lift in the landing flare? It isn't by pulling down on the front risers.

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And no, with a riser turn you stay more under your canopy than during a toggle turn.

You can swing out 45 degrees with the toggles or front risers.....

Derek

[Bartje 0]

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You can swing out 45 degrees with the toggles or front risers.....

My humble experience said not so.

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Lose lift? How do you gain lift in the landing flare?

I thought you were talkin about the 90° turn before landing or arent you.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[Hooknswoop 19]

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My humble experience said not so.

You have to be kidding me. With my old canopy I could bring myself into a vertical dive with either toggles or front risers. 45-degrees with either toggles or risers was child's play. Hell, I could get past 45-degrees with only harness input.

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I thought you were talkin about the 90° turn before landing or arent you.

Doesn't matter when you pull toggles. Pulling a toggle at 2000 feet doesn't cause the canopy to lose lift any more than pulling them at 10 feet. Pulling a toggle down increases the camber of the canopy, increasing lift and drag.

Derek

[Bartje 0]

there is a difference between the movement of your canopy and the movement of your body.
With a toggle turn it is your body what is moving (pendula effect) and with a riserturn it is your canopy. It seems the same but it is not. The flightcaracteristics from your canopy are very different.
With a toggle turn your canopy is smaller cause to the deformation from the toggleinput (in fact the reason why your canopy turns). With the riser turn it is the deformation and not the surface what is smaller what causes the turn. You can think what the 5 or 10% difference can give but it gives a lot in lift. During a toggle you create a bigger presure difference than with a riserturn in the cells
Long story short, you have more lift after a riserturn than after a toggle turn.
in context for the 90° turn where the discussion is beginning with, it is a big issue for me.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Long story short, you have more lift after a riserturn than after a toggle turn.

This I completely agree with.

Derek

[Jumpmunki 0]

easy guys i didn't mean to start a "discussion"
so risers give you more of an immediate ability to arrest the dive than toggles? not because of the possition under the wing, but because you have more airspeed and thus lift available?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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so risers give you more of an immediate ability to arrest the dive than toggles? not because of the possition under the wing, but because you have more airspeed and thus lift available?

I don't think that is a fair statement. More airspeed means you are descending faster. Less airspeed equals a slower descent rate. I think it doesn't make a difference. At higher airspeeds the toggles have more effect, but because of the secent rate, it takes the same amount of altitude as a slower sirspeed would because of less response but a slower descent rate.

Toggle hook turns are bad because the wing slows down i the turn with the majority of the energy for the swoop coming as a result of the pendelum effect. Front risers gives a faster diving turn for the same amount of pendelum and dive angle.

Just to clarify, recovery is with the toggles only. Rear risers shouldn't be used to dig out of the corner.

Derek

[Jumpmunki 0]

it wasn't a statement derek it was a question
i always drill immediate dive recovery on every other flight .

depending on the length of the canopy ride usually after a 5k lift for a bit of a 2way funky exit or something i'll just do

immediate dive recovery
and
toggle stalls and recovery

[AMax 0]

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Rear risers shouldn't be used to dig out of the corner.

Because of the danger of high speed stall ?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Because of the danger of high speed stall ?

Right and because they won't bring the pilot back under the canopy as quickly or slow the canopy down as much as toggles.

Derek

[livenletfly 0]

i thought he was right on the money. although i disagree slightly that doing 270's should be above a 1.8 w/l. other than that i think hes totaly corr3ect about matching w/l to degree of turn.

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[raymod2 1]

This thread kills me. First you have the canopy nazis telling people not to downsize until you wring out your canopy at your current wing loading. Now people are saying that you shouldn't explore the full range of canopy flight until you downsize. Am I the only one who sees the absurdity in this?

[WeakMindedFool 0]

Nazi's...I hate those guys!

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
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[Bartje 0]

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This thread kills me. First you have the canopy nazis telling people not to downsize until you wring out your canopy at your current wing loading. Now people are saying that you shouldn't explore the full range of canopy flight until you downsize. Am I the only one who sees the absurdity in this?

There are two different ways to aproach a canopy in context of downsizing. My point ass well.
I fly my canpopy at +/-80%. In the past I did have a discission with D., he said also that you have to go 100% before dowsizing. In context for a hp canopy perhaps it is better to go 100% before downsizing.
I belive that when you are at a wl between 1.0 to 1.5 you do not win much performance with extreem flying, you win some but is not worth the effort. (my personal opinion)

A FreeFly Gypsy

[NeedToJump 0]

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I belive that when you are at a wl between 1.0 to 1.5 you do not win much performance with extreem flying, you win some but is not worth the effort. (my personal opinion)

I disagree. I load my Katana 120 at about 1.45 and have no problem competing in swoop competitions unless I'm going into a strong headwind. I'm no where near ready to compete in an Open or Pro class, but I've done well in the FLCPA meets in the Intermediate class getting better distance and accuracy scores than some of the competitors flying a Velocity at 2.0. I also definitely have not maxed out this canopy and am not planning on downsizing for a while.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Remster 30]

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This thread kills me. First you have the canopy nazis telling people not to downsize until you wring out your canopy at your current wing loading. Now people are saying that you shouldn't explore the full range of canopy flight until you downsize. Am I the only one who sees the absurdity in this?

I dont see a huge riff in between the 2 stances... Nothing is stoping you from exploring the full range of flight from any canopy up high. It just states that you should know the risk/benefit of certain maneuvres with certain loading levels on your canopy...

Remster

[Bartje 0]

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I disagree. I load my Katana 120 at about 1.45 and have no problem competing in swoop competitions unless I'm going into a strong headwind. I'm no where near ready to compete in an Open or Pro class, but I've done well in the FLCPA meets in the Intermediate class getting better distance and accuracy scores than some of the competitors flying a Velocity at 2.0. I also definitely have not maxed out this canopy and am not planning on downsizing for a while.

You can handle it well your Katana but As I see it it is in the parameters of performance and not only in swooping.
Do you think you win much performance with a wl1.55 with your Karana?

A FreeFly Gypsy

[rmsmith 1]

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I'm not sure why Robin wrote what he wrote. He is certainly no expert on canopy flight, and I doubt his ability to even do a hook turn much less a decent swoop. After a serious injury from a majorly bad judgement call with a Triathalon 135 on a base jump, Robin has a lot of time on his hands to think about other areas of parachuting he can involve himself in. Take advice from people who stand on the sidelines with a large grain of salt.

Robin did indicate that he consulted a number of high performance pilots before writing the article, so I doubt that he's shooting from the hip. Robin has been around for a long time at major all-season dropzones, and he has done his share of contributing to the sport many compelling articles prior to the popular use of the Internet.

[livenletfly 0]

let me clarify; i dont feel this should be the only factor considered in determining "when to downsize" . what i liked most about the article is it put in ink a very real fact of hp landings that i believe needs more discussion. its a very important piece of the big picture. i doubt the author meant it to be anything more than that.

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[LukeOliver 0]

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I'm not sure why Robin wrote what he wrote. He is certainly no expert on canopy flight, and I doubt his ability to even do a hook turn much less a decent swoop. After a serious injury from a majorly bad judgement call with a Triathalon 135 on a base jump, Robin has a lot of time on his hands to think about other areas of parachuting he can involve himself in. Take advice from people who stand on the sidelines with a large grain of salt.

I don't know Robin, but I'm sure I know why Robin wrote what he wrote.

Robin is hurting, after the demise of someone he knew. He has focussed on providing a framework for preventing a repetition of the same.

This action fits a pattern, and he has chosen to use the energy produced by his grief in a constructive method.

Regardless of his motive, we gain little by marginalising his skills and diminishing his strategy - which, whether you respect him personally or not, offers one more piece of the puzzle and some answers to go with it.

Remster opened this thread with a specific request to discuss the strategy.

Robin's strategy is constructive.

More listening.
Less personal criticism.

Please.

L.

[LukeOliver 0]

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Just read Robin's article in Skydiving where he offers for discussion the max turns to do for a HP landing under different wingloads. To summarize, due to the shorter recovery angle of canolies loaded low, 90deg turns should be a max for 1.3 and less, 180 deg for 1.7 to 1.4, and 270 for 1.8 and more.

Robin introduces that discussion with the commentary that a 270deg turn at 1.3 executed 50 feet too low is more dangerous than a 270 at 2.0 executed 300 feet too low.

The rationale is simple - the more aggressive wing loadings require a much higher initiation point.

An additional component worth considering in this discussion is time, in seconds, between initiation and touchdown - it makes for a very obvious comparison.

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He doesnt offer this as gospel, just a discussion. He explains he came up wit this after Adria killed herself doing large turns under a 1.3 canopy.

"...rule of thumb... better and safer... Argue with it, add to it, make it happen where you jump." No preaching there.

L.