It won't happen to me...

[3ringheathen 0]

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To be quite honest: I read the first sentence, I read the last sentence...and, uhm, yep. It looked like another Canopy Nazi Diatribe, and well, I've have enough of that already. I'm guessing my reaction isn't that uncommon...

I'd guess that this reaction isn't that uncommon, too.

Particularly amongst the crowd that's most likely to crater in at some point.

I'm not saying that you will, but in my experience, such attitudes are predictive of serious injury.

If someone stops reading this forum or ignores my advice at the dz because they can't stand the idea of being reminded that their decisions influence their chances of getting hurt that's their problem.
No one is suggesting that everybody stop swooping, just that we not repeat the mistakes of others when they can be avoided so easily.

Oh well, at least I can visit them in the hospital with a clear conscience, knowing that I tried.

I wish you could see the look on "Bill's" face when I paid him a visit after his helicopter ride to the ER. I didn't have to say "I told you so." he knew it.

More importantly, he wished he'd listened, but too late.
When two really large bones are broken into 6-7 smaller ones, it sucks. He'll never be the same, but at least he's alive.

I know this falls on deaf ears, but I'm writing it for the benefit of others that aren't yet so jaded.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[lippy 918]

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What you may not be aware of (by no fault of your own) is that there has been a pattern forming over the last several years in which deaths or serious injuries involving open, properly functioning parachutes has been on the rise.

I may be wrong here, but I've been thinking that as of late, the number of people cratering in during HP landings has gone down. I thought this was the case, and largely because the training was getting better and we were starting to learn from mistakes a little more. Maybe there's just been less reporting of such incidents? Don't get me wrong, I agree with what you're saying, but have you not noticed a decrease in (at least reported) incidents over the past year or so?

I got nuthin

[ccowden 0]

I think the number of fatalities has gone down but I am not sure about the number of non-fatal injuries. The disturbing trend seems to be that most of the injuries and fatalities that involve a "high performance" landing technique involve people with an average wing loading of about 1.4 and jump numbers of between 40 and 600. When I went back through the last 9 fatalities due to a high performance landing, 5 of them had under 300 jumps. And only 1 was at a wing loading of above 1.7.

So it appears that the swoopers who are performing high performance landings and load their canopies at 1.8 to 2.5 are getting safer with better training and safer techniques, but the people who are hurting themselves are the people trying high performance landings too early in their "careers" with to heavily loaded canopies for that stage.

Here are the last 9 fatalities that I looked at with number of jumps and wing loading:

# Jumps Wing loading
201 1.4
624 1.6
275 1.3
1,000 1.7
44 1.1
800 2.1
94 1.1
228 1.3
1,600 ?

There are a couple disturbing things here in my opinion. The high wing loadings at low jump numbers, and the more disturbing, the jumpers tryinh high performance landings at low jump numbers regardless of wing loading. These are only fatalities, but if you go back and look at the non-fatal reports, the trend is the same.

I think the purpose of this thread is to make everyone think about this trend. Not with everyone, but the attitude of "it won't happen to me" or "being invincible" or "I know what I am doing" usually goes along with these exact jump numbers and time in the sport. Again, I repeat, not with everybody. I myself was guilty of having similar attitudes from time to time when I was in that 50- 500 jump range. I also hurt myself being stupid under canopy. It is with years and jumps combined with education that has made me a better canopy pilot. I changed my attitude and started listening to what was being taught by the experienced pilots, rather than just trying to mimick them.

What was said in this original post has alot of merit. Everyone, myself included, has to take a step back and really look at what they are doing and make sure we are doing it in the safest manner possible. Don't rush into high performance landings. Think in terms of a thousand jumps instead of a hundred. And most importantly, do not get caught having the attitude of "it won't happen to me" or "I know what I am doing". Listen, learn, take your time. Be safe!

I feel like I was all over the place in this post, so hopefully it makes atleast a little bit of sense.

[davelepka 4]

***take a step back and really look at what they are doing and make sure we are doing it in the safest manner possible. Think in terms of a thousand jumps instead of a hundred
====================================

Thats another good point. My assertion was that the equipment has vaulted ahead of the training, which is true, but additionally, the top end of the performance envelope has also gone up significantly.

I wouldn't regard a guy with 750 jumps as a novice, much to the contrary. 750 jumps is enough to qualify for all of the instructional ratings, and it represents a commendable dedication to the sport. I wouldn't think twice about jumping with such a person, and wouldn't be surprised to hear if they were on a 100 way, or built a ten-way head down formation. HOWEVER, in terms of canopy piloting, it is just a drop in the bucket. That jumper is essentially a novice. Once you hit 1.5 or 1.6, you need to be putting at least 500 jumps on a canopy to really be an 'expert' on that wing/wingloading, and be ready for a downsize. At 750 jumps, unless you had followed an overly aggressive progression, you'll just be halfway into your first 'hp' wingloading. A newbie.

[Morcyk 0]

Not really a disagree, but a comment on the 2nd post... I would have to somewhat agree on the amount of good the concern can provider. It's nice to know someone cares, but us students are drilled over and over again on the safety and I would expect, most like me, probably spend lots of time reading up on that stuff including canopy control, but I suspect that as time goes on, some, no matter how many times you tell them, will beging to forget safety, perhaps because they never experienced an issue that required that information, or maybe they just think they can just feel the situation out when it happens. If I ever do that, feel free to beat me over the head with a 6-pack a few times, but I also suspect that most of the people that decide to continue in the sport well past student status probably do try to stay on top of safety procedures. At least the people on this forum seem to!

[skyhighkiy 0]

You'd be amazed by the amount of young jumpers that don't read up on things like canopy control.

you'd also be amazed by how many young jumpers read a ton about skydiving, but don't know enough to know what to read.

BE THE BUDDHA!

[VectorBoy 0]

# Jumps Wing loading
201 1.4
624 1.6
275 1.3
1,000 1.7
44 1.1
800 2.1
94 1.1
228 1.3
1,600 ?



and the more disturbing, the jumpers tryinh high performance landings at low jump numbers regardless of wing loading. T

[ccowden 0]

Actually, EVERY one of the above listed fatalities were due to a low turn using some kind of high performance technique. Either a 180+ turn to landing or front riser diving turn, or both.

It is the introduction of these techniques into the landing process that is the problem. It CAN be done safely and in a manner that slowly builds skill and experience, but it seems that more and more jumpers are trying these techniques way before they are really ready or skilled to be. Statistically, it is this group of jumpers who are getting hurt. The statistics have ALWAYS supported that. Now with the introduction of new equipment and high performance landings, it has put many incident numbers back in a column that WAS on the decline. There has to be a responsibility taken by everyone in this sport to do everything we can to make it safer. One's attitude is where it all starts.

[davelepka 4]

Your not the prime target of the post, but if you can remember it down the road, I'm glad you read it.

Give yourself a couple hundred jumps, and maybe some success in your chosen freefall pastime, and then you'll be the guy I'm targeting. Many jumpers at that point feel as if they can do anything. The learning curve in those early days is so steep, that it's easy to believe that becasue you've learned so much. you must be close to having learned everything. It's not true.

What you can do right now, however, is spend at least as much time talking about canopy flight as you do freefall. Many instructors will lay out a canopy flight plan, and if it goes well, just say, 'atta boy', and move on to go into minute detail about your freefall and exit. Push them to tell you more about canopies. Ask them what course of action to take in different eventualties, much like they will drill you on regarding the freefall.

When you get off student status, be smart in choosing your canopies. Once you have purchased your first canopy, seek out a canopy coaching program. Look at the info out there, and realize that you are not special, you're just another data point in the statistcis. Which side of the pie chart you're on is up to you.

Theres a guy who posts here who has a sig line that says "If you can't be killed doing it, it's not a sport, it's just a game". Well, for the most part, freefall is a game, landing your canopy is a sport.

[78RATS 0]

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you're just another data point in the statistcis. Which side of the pie chart you're on is up to you.

So true.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[skreamer 1]

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Same thing with freeflying. There's an easier way and there's a harder way. The one you pick is entirely up to you.

Same thing with BASE jumping. People who do the bare minimum skydives (150 jumps) to get onto a FJC, not bothering with any BASE specific canopy control practice/drills. I mean really, how difficult can it be to land a canopy that big (at night in a shitty small landing area)?

Will

Daar is nie pille vir dommigheid nie.

[Salsa_John 0]

if you were an existentialist you would not care what others thought and would only deal with the facts...

to quote a greek slave as his owner was twisting his leg...

"if you continue to twist my leg, it will break."

Once the leg had broken the slave said...

"I told you it would break."

Maybe you should try pessimism, futilism or realism.

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez

[mattjw916 2]

Sorry I didn't address your comment earlier... I was busy jumping my "dangerous" canopy.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Jumpmunki 0]

just my input here

being on the verge of getting my 200th jump

and already trying to be a hot shot with a sabre 150 and nearly snapping both my legs in the process

i can see that 28 jumps.. you got your licence, then you got your FS1 and IC1 now you have 50 jumps and B licence ..... it's all good, your unstoppable, your rocking at FS because you got your ticket to jump with your pals who have 100 jumps and still no FS1 ....

then you get a copy of the PST 2003 vid and see the guys burning up the pond, "i like the look of that" said the munki. so i get alot of coaching and instead of stopping at each point until more coaching was available i got cocky and started 180's at about 120 jumps because i wanted to swoop.

having read books, watched the out takes from out of the blue and pst more closley and seen 5 jump bud's of mine snap legs it tends to slow you down quite a bit,

showing off, while when it works looks good
ploughing a hole with your knees in hard grass in front of a camera and a whole DZ FULL of tandems, grannys and there pets SUCKS and it really makes you humble

i was concentrating on my 90 turns to final but have decided to back up to straight in fronts till i nail the transition from dive to level flight and until i do i will be holding off the turns, even though i'm burning to "whack in a 270 and burn up the front of the manifest carving along and dragging my toe" it ain't gonna fucking happen... so theres no point in trying it until i'm skilled and experienced enough.

there have been many points in my canopy progresion where i hve BEGGED to jump a smaller wing, and been denied, and thought ah you bunch of cunts... but when i look becak even 70 jumps on.... i thank the people that stood in the way.

MANY people ignore the advice and do it anyway, i actuvly looked for advice and held myself back, and still do

i bore the hell out of many people i meet with my passion for canopy piloting and urge everyone to get onto courses and get coaching. most people get the wrong end of the stick and think i'm telling people to learn to swoop

canopy piloting is my sport that i want to excel in
freeflying is my game.

to excel as a sportsman you need the right attitude, the dedication and to know when to stop and get the advice of others

i have now learnt a very important rule that will keep me from doing stupid things under canopy in the future

there are no shortcuts to learn to swoop, it takes time,

just grit your teeth and deal with it, it's frustrating, but you'll thank yourself and others for it later....

[kelpdiver 2]

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there have been many points in my canopy progresion where i hve BEGGED to jump a smaller wing, and been denied, and thought ah you bunch of cunts... but when i look becak even 70 jumps on.... i thank the people that stood in the way.

MANY people ignore the advice and do it anyway, i actuvly looked for advice and held myself back, and still do

To give context, Matt's "dangerous" canopy was a 1.1 WL at 90 jumps. This is a borderline violation of the reference chart being discussed. 10 jumps later, he's now in compliance.

Your 1.25 at 180 jumps is further over the line, if those values are current.

[chrisgr 0]

You missed the most important part of Jumpmunki's post.

Jumpmunki has listened to other skydivers and heeded their advice.

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to excel as a sportsman you need the right attitude, the dedication and to know when to stop and get the advice of others

Perhaps you should do the same.

As mentioned by another experienced skydiver, why don't you get current or update your profile to better reflect your experience (or time) in this sport. I bet that if you actually had 9 years in this sport and had shared the same experiences as many other skydivers, you would be singing a different tune.

[davelepka 4]

Although this is an older thread, and I cannot remember every post (and I'm not going to re-read the entire thing), I don't think that anyone, aside from Matt, ever commented on his choice of canopy or WL with the word 'dangerous' (or anything remotely similar).

I have agreed several times that there are students who make for better canopy pilolts than others. The trouble was always in sorting out the good ones from the bad before canopies are selected. The only solution I could come up with was for ALL canopy pilots to follow a progression that has proven to be a safer alternative to no restrictions at all. The only downside would be to those students who may be able to handle a faster canopy sooner than others, and even then, that will be quickly corrected when said jumper cranks out some jumps. Soon enough, students won't even be aware that there was a time where you could just 'jump whatever'.

When I got my first eliptical, at which point I had 1000+ jumps and 500 or 600 swoops, I didn't lament the fact that I couldn't have a Velocity becasue the Velocity didn't exist. See? No option, no disappointment.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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When I got my first eliptical, at which point I had 1000+ jumps and 500 or 600 swoops, I didn't lament the fact that I couldn't have a Velocity becasue the Velocity didn't exist. See? No option, no disappointment.

That's a great statement. "Back in the day" (early '80s) it was not vogue at all to jump small canopies. Those of us who did volunteer to test jump the tiniest *gasp!* 150 square foot canopies were told we were dumb. "How you gonna do CRW with us after we dump from our 8-way under that thing?" When everyone was jumping (and even swooping, formerly just called "turf surfing") Raiders, Falcons, and Units no one seemed to care that their rigs were hanging off their backs. With the dawn of "real" high performance canopies (Excalliburs, BlueTracks, Evolutions) we still only went as small as 150, sometimes 135. Same when Sabres and Monarchs came along. With each progression, the manufacturers made sure to warn that "this is a high performance product, not to be jumped by persons with under 1000 jumps." Ultimately, when the first fully elliptical canopy PD came out (the Stilletto), they absolutely mandated that one possess 1000 jumps on a square before jumping it. Why any newbie out there today thinks anything has changed concerning the term "high performance" and "jump numbers required" I don't know. Ten years ago even the most vanity driven skydivers were still hesitant to jump the most high performance mains. Now it seems every smelly freefly kid with a nose ring on the DZ simply must find a way to buy a crossbraced canopy, even though he is just off of student status. There is simply no shortcut to acquiring the neccessary experience to fly a sub-100 main, no matter what you paid your "pro" canopy coach to tell you. If you do not possess the experience that comes with actually landing a parachute over and over and over, then you are just asking for it.

Chuck

[kelpdiver 2]

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Although this is an older thread, and I cannot remember every post (and I'm not going to re-read the entire thing), I don't think that anyone, aside from Matt, ever commented on his choice of canopy or WL with the word 'dangerous' (or anything remotely similar).

It's the (current) adjacent thread - Brian Germain WL chart, page 2. No one used the word dangerous, but you in particular suggested that he was jumping outside the mainstream, and inviting the risks that come with it. But Matt really isn't the kind of jumper you're trying to address, not unless he wants to switch to a 150 soon.

I commented here because the person indicated he was responding to Matt in particular, even though his own wingloading appears to be more aggressive. Maybe he just hit reply to the last poster.

[Jumpmunki 0]

yeah i just hit reply to the thread not to individuals .. force of habit.

yes i wing load at 1.28 to be exact i think however i'm comfortable at that loading.

i was pointing out that i was in a rush before, and after listening (like a alot of people don't) and having my own brush with the reaper (that alot of people come off worse from unfortunaly) i've took my head out of my arse and have realised i'm just a bit of meat on a string and calmed my approach to wanting to jump a pocket rocket like yesterday ...

yes i'm still loading higher than the chart or whatever but it's something my "stepped back" self if happy with and am going to stick with till i'm truley ready to move on ... (maybe next week...... joking, for you people with no sense of humour)

[stratostar 5]

You got that right, very well said!
What get's me is about those who whine about all this WL issue is, they DON'T get it. When the PRO rating came out, even tho I had done many demos with out the rating, I had to PROVE myself to get the rating to do demos I had all ready done before many times. Why? because some couldn't handle it and got in over their head, got hurt, killed or killed or hurt someone on the ground. The same apply's to todays canopies,
you may NOT "only hurt or kill yourself" you might take someone out and only hurt yourself, don't fool your selfs in to thinking it can't or won't happen, it all ready has more then once!

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Jumpmunki 0]

i think one of the issues here stratostar is that many "young jumpers" in terms of numbers TRY and prove themselves and end up dead ... simply because they're ego says there ready when in fact there not ..

[stratostar 5]

Yes I know that. That was my point even tho the s&ta, dzo, faa local rep, knew me and knew I could do any demo because of what I did in the past, I got no "grandfather" on the pro rating I have to prove I had the skill to people who knew I had the skill. With the WL issue if your a ego stroking wannabee hot shot and show bad judgment early on you won't be jumping a hotrod canopy because your lack of skill and good judgment will show it's self early on, and we'll be cleaning you up from under a student canopy after trying to show off.
The biggest part of proving ones self is to show good judgment and be in control of your skills and knowing ones limits. Some of the best demos I have ever done I landed in one of the out's or didn't go at all, the same would apply to HP
landings, knowing how and when to swoop and when not too, or understanding you don't have the skill to do so in the first place.
Like learning to walk, one must crawl first.
Because so many didn't have the good judgment or skills to do demos, we now have a pro rating and even some who have a pro rating still forget to use that good judgment otherwise we would have people on the ground getting hurt or killed by skydivers because they went to a football game.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo