It won't happen to me...

[davelepka 4]

The revival of the "I'm angry as hell" thread, mixed with the recent over time the reaper has been putting in has prompted me to re-post some thoughts for the new guys.

Skydiving is a dangerous activity, and accidents happen even if you follow all the rules, and heed the advice of others. When you disregard commonly followed industry standards or practices, or blow off the warnings or advice of those you are trying to emulate, any resulting injuries or deaths aren't accidents, they are avoidable, stupidity induced incidents.

Take a moment and consider the following:

Whatever you had envisioned your life to be like, whatever hopes and aspirations you had for yourself, will all be radically changed if you are confined to a wheelchair.

Imagine the pain and heartache your friends and family will feel when you are laid up in the ICU of some hospital. What happens when the Dr. tells them you will never walk again? What happens to the hopes they had for their own life? Do you think they included one of their children being violently confined to a wheelchair?

Who is going to accept the burden (be it financial or emotional) if you are in need of long term care? Long term as in the rest of your life.

If the worst should happen, and you don't survive trying to land your properly functioning parachute, are there people in your life who count on you for support (again both financial or emotional)? Where do they turn when you are gone? Picture your mother sitting at your funeral, would you want her to know that you are in a box because you were sure that you knew better than the experienced jumpers you were trying to emulate? That your death was not a freak and unexpected accident, but the result of gross negligence on your part, and that others had predicted such an outcome?

With that in mind, what's the rush? What even is the goal? To impress your friends? To be Joe Cool on the DZ? Are either of those ends worth the possible price outlined above? Is the opinion of other jumpers worth risking the health and well-being of both you and your family?

Maybe you don't care what others think, and you live for the swoop. In that case, realize that the guys who get the most out of their swoops (J-Mo, JC, Slaton, etc) have been jumping for years, before swooping was even a word, working their way up to where and what they are doing now. If you really feel that swooping is in your heart, then have enough respect for it to follow in the masters footsteps, not try to leapfrog over them.

OK, I'm done blowing sunshine, now lets get serious. I don't need to know that you agree with me, so if you do, indicate it by NOT posting on this thread. We don't need an 8 page thread of "Hell yeah"s and "Here here"s.

Anyone who thinks I'm wrong, on the other hand, I'm eagerly awaiting your response and viewpoint.

[mattjw916 2]

I think about once a month someone posts a thread almost exactly like this somewhere on this board... and I really don't think it does a damn bit of good.

Maybe that is just the existentialist part of me talking.

The problem is the majority of the audience on this forum is not the people with <100 jumps that think a Stiletto is a good idea for a next canopy or jumping 2:1 canopy loadings at 500 jumps. A sermon without an audience really doesn't accomplish much. My $0.02. But if it makes you feel better, type away.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[larsrulz 0]

But that isn't true. Weekly I see people who are just off student status getting a 1.1+ canopy, or people with 200 jumps who jump an eliptical at 1.4 with a camera, or someone with 500 jumps on a 1.7 cross-braced. All the while hearing about instructors all over the place recommending that the above canopies as a good idea. I hear time and time again from people who ask these types of questions that while they get only safety conscious responses on the boards, they consistently get PM responses encouraging them to jump canopies which they are not ready for.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[mattjw916 2]

I didn't mean convey that there was no one here like that, but your examples are far less extreme. I know plenty of people that do most of the stuff you listed and more. In contrast, I know plenty of people that are waaaaay more conservative then they really have to be, but that is their comfort level so that is fine.

My (only) point is that people will do what they want regardless of how many people recommend a "better" course of action. It is very easy to "shop around" for opinions on gear and such, here as well as at the various DZs. The knowledge is out there, some people are just thick and want to learn the hard way and, I'm sorry to say, no amount of lengthy threads on the topic is going to change that.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[cloud9 0]

while I agree with your ideals the problem is we all have the it won't happen to be syndrome. If we didn’t we couldn't jump. If I really thought I was going to get put in a wheel chair or worse I would quit right now. I know it can happen but lets get real I don't think it's going to happen to me. Now it’s not much of a stretch for the wantabe’s to push the limit with the same mindset. So how do you take a mentality that is required to jump and stifle it in the right perimeters?

[davelepka 4]

***The problem is the majority of the audience on this forum is not the people with <100 jumps that think a Stiletto is a good idea for a next canopy or jumping 2:1 canopy loadings at 500 jumps

====================================

I would be interested to know how you arrived at this assertion. My guess is that the demographic of this forum can only be classified as 'skydivers'. Jump numbers and opinions on equipment would be impossible to gather, even with a database of profile info. Guests, incomplete profiles, and the lack of opinions in those profiles would make the validity of any data questionable at best.

All that aside, in keeping with the spirit of my post, even if one person is saved from injury or death as a result of reading the post, I'm sure thier mother would appreciate my time and trouble.

[Fast 0]

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while I agree with your ideals the problem is we all have the it won't happen to be syndrome. If we didn’t we couldn't jump. If I really thought I was going to get put in a wheel chair or worse I would quit right now. I know it can happen but lets get real I don't think it's going to happen to me. Now it’s not much of a stretch for the wantabe’s to push the limit with the same mindset. So how do you take a mentality that is required to jump and stifle it in the right perimeters?

Does everyone really have the "It won't" mentality? I don't know. Mine is more of a "It could happen to me but these are the things I do to keep it from happening"

I think that is a MUCH safer attitude than just going forward figuring your always gonna be ok and it will always be the next guy over. Quite frankly, it CAN happen to you but there are things that you can do to help prevent injury, though now and then you just get screwed... "shit happens."

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[davelepka 4]

***So how do you take a mentality that is required to jump and stifle it in the right perimeters?

=====================================

Try real hard. Try real hard all the time, with every jumper you encounter. Encourage them to do the same.

There are some hard and fast rules of skydiving. Opening a canopy before impact is one of them. Lets make a logical progression through canopy piloting skills and sizes another one of them.

[mattjw916 2]

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I would be interested to know how you arrived at this assertion.

By spending a lot of time (reading) on the board since my job affords me a lot of personal time.

That aside, I do agree with your sentiment.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[davelepka 4]

***Quite frankly, it CAN happen to you but there are things that you can do to help prevent injury
===================================

Indeed.

Ten years and thousands of jumps later, I find myself scared silly of things that would have never phased me in my fisrt few years and few hundred jumps. Am I simply growing into a big chicken? No. Have I learned that I should have been scared then, but was too ignorant to know it? Yes. Did luck bring me through unharmed? Yes. Should we soldier on and assume that luck will carry all the ignorant jumpers through unharmed? I don't think so, but some of the replies to my original post seem to indicate that others don't agree.

[davelepka 4]

***By spending a lot of time (reading) on the board
---------------------------------------------------------

I regularly (almost daily) speak with jumpers on the phone who read the board every day, but have never, and will never, post anything. Given the small group of jumpers I'm tight with, it leads me to believe that there are many more like them out there.

[speedy 0]

But it will happen to me, I can feel it coming. On loads of jumps these days I get scared shitless.
I keep assessing the risks and the enjoyment and come to the conclusion it just not worth it. The I do a jump and the adrenalin kicks in and.. hey!! Let's do another. But one day, it will all go wrong

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[kaerock 1]

To be quite honest: I read the first sentence, I read the last sentence...and, uhm, yep. It looked like another Canopy Nazi Diatribe, and well, I've have enough of that already. I'm guessing my reaction isn't that uncommon, especially when you consider how many people would've skipped this thread based upon the topic alone, or no longer frequent this forum due to this same type of thing being reposted again and again.

Ranting and raving on this forum about safety and down-sizing, and how people don't listen to YOU is about as effective as, well, I can't think of an effective simile at the moment. Generally what ensues is a big circle-jerk from the peanut gallery here about how you're right-on for preaching safety and lambasting anyone that doesn't follow your safety guidelines to the tee. It's a waste of bandwidth and of people's time as it diminishes the potential effectiveness of this forum to teach and educate.

Think about the audience that you really need to reach. How will they receive that which you feel is critical to share? How would you like to have it presented to you? Don't get so caught up in the emotion that you fail to consider that your audience may be perceiving you as just ranting. Listing consequences to potential actions doesn't work.

I believe in safety. I believe in being humble. I believe in being open to learning and re-learning things from every person. I don't believe in how it is approached here.

Perhaps I'm just cynical, and I'm okay with that :>

-R

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[skyhighkiy 0]

whether or not the post does a lot of good relates to what scale you're thinking on.

say 5000 people look at this post and 300 are the 100 jump wonders with the mentality.

that's a really, really small number of people compared to the 5000 that saw it. Lets say that only five of those actually hear what he's saying. Lets say, those five people never thought of it as taking more than their own life in to their hands and are truly affected by it.

That's five people whose lives you might have saved. and if they are supporting people...well, you get the picture.

Sure, this post doesn't have an affect on you or me or some other newbie jumpers, but we need people like him to put stuff like this out there, to help them re-think what they're doing, even if it only means one skydiving brother's life. It's like a cypress, how many people actually have a cypress fire? but for that one person that does...

why is it That that one life seems so much more insignificant pre-accident, but everyone knows about the person, respects their death, has dives dedicated to them, and uses their mistake as an example of what not to do, once they have a profile in the fatality database?

Edit to add: Nobody should be so ignorant as to believe that everyone learns the way they do, or that everyone learns like the majority does. There are acceptions to every rule, How do you know the ways you (not saying YOU, specifically) are suggesting to teach these topics, the topics you describe as the "Right" way, are going to work for the acceptions?

BE THE BUDDHA!

[cloud9 0]

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I don't know. Mine is more of a "It could happen to me but these are the things I do to keep it from happening"

You see because you do certain things then you think it won't happen to me. Same thing the inexperieced pilot thinks when he buys the small elliptical canopy.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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To be quite honest: I read the first sentence, I read the last sentence...and, uhm, yep. It looked like another Canopy Nazi Diatribe, and well, I've have enough of that already.

Then you did yourself a disservice. It's actually not a canopy nazi post at all. It's a pretty well thought out topic on the impact a decision could have.

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It's a waste of bandwidth and of people's time as it diminishes the potential effectiveness of this forum to teach and educate.

Unfortunately most people in the category you're referring to aren't seeking education. They're looking for justification of their choices, big difference.

Quite honestly, I've gotten to the point where I just don't have the patience anymore. I'm happy having less competition in the swooping events, it's tough enough already. If someone wants my help, they can ask for it. If they ask for it and they don't like what they hear, tough shit, I'm giving them the best I can. If the feel they can do better then go somewhere else, but I WILL NOT blow smoke up somebodies ass to make them feel justified or good about a decision that will hurt them (maybe not physically) in their progression.

Same thing with freeflying. There's an easier way and there's a harder way. The one you pick is entirely up to you.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Fast 0]

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I don't know. Mine is more of a "It could happen to me but these are the things I do to keep it from happening"

You see because you do certain things then you think it won't happen to me. Same thing the inexperieced pilot thinks when he buys the small elliptical canopy.

Not really.

All you can do is mitigate some of the risk. Try to lower your exposure to things that can kill and/or injure you. That does not mean something can't happen to a person (me, whoever) or that I think that.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[skyhighkiy 0]

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You see because you do certain things then you think it won't happen to me.

not what he meant at all. Because this is the same mentality I have. you know it can happen, so you do things to do your best to avoid it.

BE THE BUDDHA!

[sdsouthsask 0]

I don't think you really know much about who reads these forums, you probably know lots about who posts to them however. Look at the number of posts that each person has done that responded to this thread already. Only a very small portion of the people that read the forums reply to them.


The problem is the majority of the audience on this forum is not the people with <100 jumps that think a Stiletto is a good idea for a next canopy or jumping 2:1 canopy loadings at 500 jumps. A sermon without an audience really doesn't accomplish much.***

[davelepka 4]

Thats quite a show you put on there, now lets review how your precursory glance at my post resulted in some errors in yours.

For starters, I didn't rant nor rave about safety or donwsizing. I did, however comment on some of the long term effects that poor decision making has on an individual and thier fanily.

Never once did I reference myself, or any person who would not listen to me. I jump at a DZ where this isn't a factor. The management is determined to keep people safe and jumping, and they teach it from day one. They follow it up by hosting mulitple Scott Miller camps each year, and encouraging everyone (staff included) to enroll. We don't have problems with people who are pushing the limits of when they downsize, or start swooping, hence, I personally don't have to deal with trying to help people who don't want to listen. I did state that my thread was inspired by the revival of another thread in which a more experienced jumper was in that very position, but his story ended with massive injuries to the jumper he was trying to advise.

As for as the circle jerk you were expecting, I clearly stated that anyone who agreed with my post should indicate so by NOT posting a reply. I have no interest in reading 'Way to go!" 64 times anymore than you do.

As far as my audience is concerned, I never suggested that downsizing nor swooping was a bad idea. I've been jumping at 2.0 for 6 or 7 years, and have been swooping all along. I'm bumping that up to 2.3 in my primary rig, and am looking forward to moving past the 450 toward some bigger turns. Swooping is fucking great. My assertion was that it needs to be approached in a logical manner consistent with the standards of the experts. I am fully behind any jumper who wants to start swooping, as long as it is done in a reasonable fashion, such as with a slow and methodical pattern of donwsizing mixed with either professional coaching, or at least the input of a highly experienced mentor.

As far as the consequences are concerned, I have personal experience with people who were hurt years ago on the DZ, and after realizing they would not recover to jump again, they stopped coming to the DZ. To the newbie, they are out-of-sight out-of-mind. The fact remains that these people will suffer for the rest of the lives, and that finaltiy needs to be understood by anyone considering pushing the limits of canopy piloting.

With that formaltiy out of the way, here's what I think:

You're not cynical, you're a douche. Don't let your apathy get in the way of anothers enthusiasm for trying to fix a problem that is killing skydivers. With your quick glance at my post, and your elaborate response, you must fancy yourself to be somewhat knowledgable, so you're the very thing we need at the DZ supporting safe canopy piloting. With your experience and knowledge, younger jumpers will respect your opinion, and follw your lead. Instead, in a public forum, you draw up a lengthy opposition to a guy who is trying to help. Now your not just slowing progress at your home DZ, but across the country. For all your assertions of mistakes I made in my post, you offer no suggestion for alternatives, and then you suggest that I am wasting bandwith.

Perhaps you are cynical, and perhaps you are OK with that, but you definately are a douche, and I hope your not OK with that.

[LearningTOfly 0]

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Skydiving is a dangerous activity, and accidents happen even if you follow all the rules, and heed the advice of others. When you disregard commonly followed industry standards or practices, or blow off the warnings or advice of those you are trying to emulate, any resulting injuries or deaths aren't accidents, they are avoidable, stupidity induced incidents.

So what was the rest of the rant about? The number one way to not get hurt skydiving- quit the sport, take up sailing. Jumping out of a perfectly good airplane is not rational, and is really quite stupid to the average thinker. Our sport contains a very obvious inherent risk. I personally know and have accepted the risk (as most of us have) that if all dosen't go well, then I have a good chance of ending up as the cause of a crater. On that note, I take every precaution (short of jumping out of the plane) I can to prevent that outcome.

There are, unfortunately, those among us who just don't think very clearly. Like another post I came across, where an instructor was asked by a student something to the effect of "do I test my cypres by not pulling and just waiting until it fires?" At least this guy asked, and so an accident may have been prevented.

Also, skydiving is totally an ego boosting activity... that's why we do it, and there's not much denying it. As all other skysports, it is extremely unforgiving. If someone feels comfy with low turns, there's really no stopping him from trying them. We can only hope that he has enough judgement to know when to call a botched turn off, or is lucky enough to survive a close call and smarten up. Good judgement comes from experience, and we all know where experience comes from.


Whew... I need to get back to studying....
Blue skies

LTF

[Remster 30]

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skydiving is totally an ego boosting activity

For you maybe. Please dont generalize me into that (and I'll bet a great number of others).

I dont skydive to make myself look good to others. I skydive because I enjoy it, its fun, I like to social aspects of it and the traveling that comes along with it. I wouldnt care if anyone else but the people I jump with get to see what I do, and even if they dont see it, I dont care.

Geeeeese....

Remster

[davelepka 4]

I hate to pull the "I have more experience" card, as it seems like an excuse for a lack of a real answer, but, it this case the differences in our experience levels plays a factor.

What you may not be aware of (by no fault of your own) is that there has been a pattern forming over the last several years in which deaths or serious injuries involving open, properly functioning parachutes has been on the rise. The primary reason is the advancement of the equipment has far surpassed the advancement of the training, which used to be quite minimal, but given the nature of parachures ten years ago, it was adequate.

I understand that at your level, there is a pretty big 'Gee Whiz" factor in skydiving. Thats not a bad thing, in fact in some ways I envy you for it, but over time, and with eperience, you'll begin to see that the equipment and safety procedues in place do a pretty decent job of keeping people in one piece. It's the lack of in depth training and education in canopy piloting that is getting people in the end. The very fact that someone can get to the point of landing a good canopy shows this. Aircraft, freefall, and deployment all went well, indicating that the systems are working. When it comes time to land, the gap in the system is revealed. This is not limited to swoopers per say, many of the incidents involve low time jumpers, with docile canopies at a low wing loading, who make bad choices in the face of an off field landing, or an obstacle/traffic situation.

As far as ego is concerned, I address that when I suggest that the opinion of your fellow jumpers should hold little water when making choices that could impact your mobiblity for the rest of your life.

Truth be told, if the 'cool' thing to do was to keep wing loading in-line with experience, seek additional training in canopy piloting, and continuosly try to better yourself in that area, then thats what the ego driven people would have to do to get the stroking they seem to desire.

[GQ_jumper 4]

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My (only) point is that people will do what they want regardless of how many people recommend a "better" course of action. It is very easy to "shop around" for opinions on gear and such, here as well as at the various DZs. The knowledge is out there, some people are just thick and want to learn the hard way and, I'm sorry to say, no amount of lengthy threads on the topic is going to change that.

[LearningTOfly 0]

I know that my experience level has alot to do with my insights into the sport, and I know those insights will change with time... I just hope I'm on the right track now. (sorry if my 'neophite' screaming response annoyed anybody... I'll grow out of it, I promise.)

Thanks for being gentle in your response, I've seen some very caustic objections to other young jumper's opinions on the forums. Feel free to pull the 'experience' card on me any time.

I am aware of the frequency of landing accidents... from reading the USPA's reports and the incidents forum here; and from personal experience I know that the landing that is one of the more challenging aspects of the jump. ...like the saying goes- 'flying is the second greatest thrill known to man, landing is the first'...
It seems to me, though, that as a student, some of us are just lucky to survive gaining the right experience and develop a bit of skill. That applies to many airborne activites, too; have you ever seen the grip a flight instructor has on their coffee cup while one of their students is flying solo for the first time? Then once we know we have that bit of skill, the 'expert' syndrome comes into play a bit... which, I think, is the underlying theme of these post topics. The developing 'expert' syndrome coupled with confidence and agression requires more luck (compared to the student phase) in order to survive. I once saw a dzo almost kill themself on a swoop.

As you might be able to see, I'm kind of struggling with the idea a bit- I see some people here saying 'why risk low turns?'; which is perfectly logical... but I imagine some of these people also fly their approches at mach 3 and know that one slip and they're toast; and once upon a time, these people were 60 jump wonders waiting to discover the joy of the front riser... and in order to do that, they had to decide to risk it once... and after surviving, they did it again and again until they could call it skill. Small canopies on the other hand, I won;t comment about other than that I'm looking for my first now, and I'm going no smaller that 1:1, and not elliptical.

As for the ego comment... I know that it reflects my youth more than anything else, but I enjoy jumping and flying, and I take pride in both of those and in the fact that I'm good (or lucky) at both. Which seems to me to be ego... but is separate from conciet. And I think that a very cool thing to do is to always seek guidance in order to grow in skill. Skydiving (or flying) is not a hobby for those who are serious, but a lifestyle... an everlasting pursuit of perfection. How's that for youthful optimism?