The111 1 #1 November 17, 2004 So I've been in the sport for a bit now and I've heard a million times that low toggle turns are bad, and I know that swoopers use risers, not toggles, to initiate their HP turns. I have not tried HP landings yet, but I have done front riser dives up high and felt the immense flare power available during plane off. I have also, on landing, done toggle turns (90's and 180's) slightly lower than I probably should have, low enough that I was not quite entirely back to steady state flight when it was time to flare. I was still able to flare and stand up my landing... and I actually got a long surf out of it (by my non-swooper standards) that was actually quite fun. Now, I'm not by any means trying to argue and say that since I can pull it off, and it is fun, that I should keep doing low toggle 180's to speed up my landings. I am however curious why these are unsafe compared to riser carves. My guess is you don't have nearly as much flare power available to dig yourself out of the corner (not that you should be digging, but the option to dig is your margin of error, and margin of error is a good thing). Like I said, from the front riser dives I've done up high, I've felt (inertially, in my stomach) the immense flare power available after the dive and during plane-off. I don't feel nearly as strong of a force during transition back to level flight after a toggle turn.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #2 November 17, 2004 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1212634;#1212634 Blues IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #3 November 19, 2004 Toggle turns CAN be done safely. I have over 2000 toggle induced swoops with only one smashed femur to show for it. Many old school swoopers started on toggles. As canopies got smaller, so we could hook higher, and that gave us a considerable margin over those who are starting out on today's smaller and faster wings. I made the change to riser swoops quite recently, after much discussion with those who had only 25% of my jumps at my DZ, and with online input from experienced swoopers on this site, like Chuck and Tim. So: "Why not toggles?" You'd be learning a technique which is redundant. Good riser swoops are easier to perform and offer better swoops for less exposure and less commitment. One risk I do see with riser swoops is the risk of losing a toggle. Nail your technique for getting off the risers and retaining the toggle up high, and practice rear riser flares for the day the toggle does escape. (while being aware of the risk of high speed stalls induced by over exuberant rear riser input.) tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropzonefool 0 #4 November 19, 2004 I not 100% sure but I have been learning and am no way tring to give expert advice to anyone.The reason risers seem to be perferred is because it doesn't de-pressurize the cells. When your turning too low, let go of the front riser 1/2 or 3/4 turn achieved and land crosswind with full pressurazition and full toggle flare to stop or to get the wing back over head. with a hard toggle turn you have de-pressurized the rear half of that side of the canopy and are commetted to turn the amount of input, if done too low you have to use a partical de-pressurize cells and toggles to try to get the wing level to stop or flare. I think! does this sound correct to anyone else? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LawnDart21 0 #5 November 19, 2004 Every swooper finds themselves "in the corner" at some point during their swoop progression and the quickest way to way to get out of the corner (read as ABORT) the turn/plain out, is to try and stab out of it with your toggles by flaring, ie, flare out of the deep turn. If you do a hook with risers and need to bail, you have a full flare to hopefully get you out of the corner. If you do a toggle hook and find yourself deep in the corner, you have already used 1/2 of your flare by inducing the turn with your toggle. You have already shut down that side of the canopy, hence you have only 1/2 as much flare to hopefully pop you out of the corner before. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #6 November 21, 2004 Thanks for the answers guys, that's pretty much what I expected to hear... www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
LawnDart21 0 #5 November 19, 2004 Every swooper finds themselves "in the corner" at some point during their swoop progression and the quickest way to way to get out of the corner (read as ABORT) the turn/plain out, is to try and stab out of it with your toggles by flaring, ie, flare out of the deep turn. If you do a hook with risers and need to bail, you have a full flare to hopefully get you out of the corner. If you do a toggle hook and find yourself deep in the corner, you have already used 1/2 of your flare by inducing the turn with your toggle. You have already shut down that side of the canopy, hence you have only 1/2 as much flare to hopefully pop you out of the corner before. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #6 November 21, 2004 Thanks for the answers guys, that's pretty much what I expected to hear... www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
