"You should practice up high" High Performance Turns

[LawnDart21 0]

Just venting.

I've read that line a bunch of times regarding High Performance turns and admittedly, the more I read it, the more I am convinced that it's just B.S.

Yes, spending time with your canopy "up high" can help give you a "feel" for how it flies and flares, but it does very little in terms of learning the flight envelope of the canopy, because we, the pilots lack an ACCURATE ground reference at 5000ft. Atlimeters aren't precise and practicing a 270 hook at 5000 ft does nothing to prepare you for doing one on landing. At 5000ft 10 or 20 ft difference in starting your turn cannot be percieved and means nothing, 10 to 20 foot difference (too low) on a HP turn to land can ruin your day.

Practing up high does not prepare you for HP turns.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[diablopilot 2]

I disagree.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[D22369 0]

I disagree totally with your assessment.....

I have been performing high performance landings for over 1000 jumps, but only within the last 200 have I switched to using the rear risers to plane the canopy out.

I took my happy ass back up high to learn how to transition from the front riser to the backs, to the toggles. I paid a lot of attention to the "feel" of the canopy.

I agree that altimeters are not that accurate, but it did give me a point of reference to begin with as the rears do not pull you out as fast as the brakes.

not going up high to learn this would have been an extremely foolish way to commit suicide...

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[LawnDart21 0]

I can't accurately get my point across right now (I'm more tired than I thought) so I deleted the post. It's been a long day, & my brain is fried.....lol. I'll try to put it in a more clear post tomorrow.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[YISkyDive 0]

In terms i agree and disagree with what is being said. Currently, I have 60 jumps, and have begun exploring canopy control. One of the manuvers that i am safetly explorning is a 270 turn, onto final, with about 50 ft plus of clearence.

My father, who has over 600 jumps, up high flies as a point of refrence, and i learn basic refrencing by him. I understand 100% by no means is this an acurate method of learning how to complete any performance landing... but its a start. The next phase of learning, is to begin (in a seperate part of the landing area, away from everyone) at X hundred feet, very high, to learn what ground refrence i can come up with. Also, being able to judge the consisteny of altitude loss, and fianlly bring it down from 100, to 80, to 50 feet.

I am planing on using well over 15 jumps, to confortably and saftely do the landing, without enderaring myself or others, but i plan on using both the high altitude method of learning, and the ground refence understanding, before at all attempting this as a true landing.

So i see it both ways, but before anything can be attempted down low.. it has to be done up high, just to have a basic understanding of the flight of the canopy... -feet down low = a bad day in the office. But, also, learning up high, doesnt exclude anyone from intrested in highperformance landings from learning ground refrence without an alitimeter, so you can learn what outs you have, and more importanty when to use those outs.

Just my 2cents

[tfelber 0]

Quote

practing up high doesnt give much back in terms of control input results to the untrained eye.

I have to agree with that and I understand what you meant to express was "just because you try it up high doesn't mean you know what it's like near the ground."

I was working up high on my perception of speed and distance and it is very difficult to judge, at best. But all the other necessary skills can and should be practiced up high; front/rear riser control, transitions from risers to toggles, etc.

I've found that my ears tell me alot about what's going on. You can hear the the change in speed as you accellerate/deccellerate. Which then gives you a measure of the time it takes to turn 180, level out, and flare. Also, paying attention to where you are in relationship to other canopies before and after manuevers adds to the understanding of the altitude lost during these manuevers.

If people learn to respect the dynamics up high maybe we would have a few less people trying it close to the ground. I know it sure makes me more cautious.

[chrisgr 0]

Tom, it was a decent post and worth discussing …

Lower experience jumpers who practice up high should only be using conservative turns -- or strictly double fronts -- for HP canopy flight. When they have developed a consistent technique and an awareness for the altitude loss associated with a particular maneuver, they can bring these tricks in on landings.

There is a progression that must take place to survive this skill development.

Someone with 44 jumps practicing 270 turns on a Tri210 will probably miss some of the more basic skills that can be acquired by following a safe progression. Example: practicing the smooth application of double-fronts until the jumper can consistently land using this technique is required before integrating this skill with any type of turn onto final.

From another thread …
- start with double fronts for 50-100 jumps
- then move to a 45-90 degree front riser carve "leaving yourself an out" 50-100 jumps
- then move to 90-120 front riser carves "leaving yourself an out" 100 jumps or more.
- then 120-180 front riser carve "leaving yourself an out" 100 jumps or more

Do all of the above on the same canopy.

[chachi 0]

Quote

In terms i agree and disagree with what is being said. Currently, I have 60 jumps, and have begun exploring canopy control. One of the manuvers that i am safetly explorning is a 270 turn, onto final, with about 50 ft plus of clearence.

You are going to crater, I am sorry to be blunt but a 270 approach with your experience is ridiculous and in no way a safe manouver. I have (not nearly enough) 700 jumps and fly an aggressive canopy but still havent touched 270's because I still can't do the perfect 180 10 out of 10 times through the gates. You are skipping massive amounts of steps and havent begun to explore the things you should be. Go read the thread about the guy that dies under a manta 280, PLEASE?

~Chachi

[Jskydiver22 0]

I agree, 270's with 44 jumps is crazy. As chachi said, you kind of passing up the 45's 90's and 180's. Everyone has to start somewhere, you done see someone teaching their 3 year old how to do a triple back-flip of the diving board do you, no they have to learn how to swim first. Take your time man, dont get hurt. An ambulance call is always bad publicity for a dropzone.

--I don't even know enough to know that I dont know--