freeflir29 0 #1 November 2, 2004 As was all too graphically illustrated Saturday.....you can die jumping from an airplane. Once again....only due to a large amount of luck and some acquired skill.....I didn't get broken. Learn from my mistakes. First jump Saturday at the Free Fly Festival SD Atlanta. Fun jump....just went out to do some random free flying with old friends. I hadn't jumped in about 7 weeks. I had 15 jumps on my fairly newly acquired Vengeance 150 loaded 1.5 or 1.6. Haven't jumped at SD Atl in a LONG time although I have hundreds of jumps there in the past so the site picture is very familiar. Instead of making a nice conservative approach I fly right overhead and rip a fairly PHAT 270. Not the smartest thing I have done lately. As soon as I let up on the riser....the thought......."Oh SHIT.......this ISN'T my Stiletto...it has a MUCH longer recovery arc!!!!!!" went through my head. Luckily.......I went into 1/4 brakes and recovered it quickly. Which of course killed my swoop.....but it was WAY cooler than riding the ambulance. Best part.......landed a few feet from Scotty Carbone who had a nice "Ummm......that was pretty FUCKIN LOW!" comment. I just looked at him.....realizing how much I had just saved myself and said "Yep........." So....ummm......please fly conservative and don't do DUMB shit when you are uncurrent. This brought to you by Claydoesdumbshit.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jskydiver22 0 #2 November 2, 2004 Glad to hear that everything turned out ok and u didnt end up messin yourself up. Ive heard that vengences really hold a dive. I know someone who did about the same thing as you, This person went into DEEP brakes though to save himself. Thanks for posting this, hopefully a lot of people will learn from it. --I don't even know enough to know that I dont know-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #3 November 2, 2004 QuoteI had 15 jumps on my fairly newly acquired Vengeance 150 loaded 1.5 or 1.6. Instead of making a nice conservative approach I fly right overhead and rip a fairly PHAT 270. First off, I'm glad you didn't crater. To my knowledge we've yet to physically meet each other and I hope this changes in the future as I would like to meet and party with the infamous "I like sheep" Clay Fowler. But now to the harder part of this post ... With all due respect it sure sounds like you have NOT spent the required time at altitude learning the performance envelop of your canopy. So you should NOT be doing 270s on this Vengence canopy until you've spent the required time at altitude learning what it will do. Remember all of us need to start over from scratch once we've switched to a new canopy. Now back to your regular scheduled programming ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #4 November 3, 2004 QuoteWith all due respect it sure sounds like you have NOT spent the required time at altitude learning the performance envelop of your canopy. It's not so much that......the fact that I DO know how it reacts saved my ass. Having not jumped in a little bit I reverted to "muscle memory" and timed the riser let up as I would have on my Stiletto. At that speed the Stiletto would have satarted an IMMEDIATE recovery. When I didn't feel that, and the canopy just stayed in it's dive, I knew it was time to pull something out of my ass. You know how it usually takes a combination of 3 things to kill you. Well....I only had 2. Newish canopy and a little uncurrent. Luckily there wasn't a 3rd thing to distract me! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #5 November 3, 2004 Newish? No, newish is my Sam with only 150 jumps on it this year after 200+ on my almost same (but different flying) Jedei. I'm still not doing 270's on my canopy since I'm not current enough and I don't know it well enough to be out doing it. A good pilot knows how to get out of a bad situation, a great pilot knows how to avoid being there in the first place.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #6 November 3, 2004 QuoteIve heard that vengences really hold a dive. Disagree. With approx. 400 jumps on a Vengeance, I start a 180 at <400 feet and a 270 at <600 feet. If I try it higher, it will plane out too high. If I go to double fronts to extend the dive, the pressure builds rapidly. It wants to plane out, badly.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crewkeith 0 #7 November 3, 2004 try starting your turn with fronts and holding it with harness you can hold your turn as long as needed that way............ dont forget about the large rock aproaching very fast though. .The skies are no longer safe I'm back Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
proswooper 2 #8 November 4, 2004 QuoteQuoteIve heard that vengences really hold a dive. Disagree. With approx. 400 jumps on a Vengeance, I start a 180 at <400 feet and a 270 at <600 feet. . a 270 at 600 feet! you dont think that is a hard dive? i do my 270 on my velo at 630 feet Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #9 November 5, 2004 that is pretty high for a non cross braced canopy that was introduced when everyone was used to stilletos. it is a departure from flat gliding canopies..although we take that for granted now with a plethora of canopies that behave that way. a vengeance loaded at 1.7 will dive almost as much as an FX loaded at 2.0 (been there done that)..it may not be as fast or efficient, but in a hard hook hard dive situation it is comparable and it can plant a newbie 6' under just as easily (and the riser pressure is lighter). ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #10 November 12, 2004 Hmmm, interesting. I start my 180's on my Saber2 at 400'. I know the Saber2 has a steeper glide slope than a Stiletto, but didn't realize it was that close to the Vengeance... Not trying to go off on a tangent, but does anybody know how different the glide slope is on the Katana vs. Saber2? I know, I know, they're two completely different canopies, but I've been jumping a Saber2 190, Stilleto 170, and Saber2 170 recently, but really want to move to the Katana 150 (I'm a big guy, give me a break! Jeff ps- haven't updated my profile in a while, but have over 400 jumps. Just wanted to throw that out before the flames hit! Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #11 November 12, 2004 Quotehow different the glide slope is on the Katana vs. Saber2? Much much steeper. It's trimmed much closer to a velocity. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #12 November 12, 2004 QuoteMuch much steeper. It's trimmed much closer to a velocity. I'm SOOOOO turned on right now! Thanks, JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #13 November 12, 2004 Quotebut really want to move to the Katana 150 Unless I'm mistaken, currently the largest Katana that you can buy is a 120. Rumor has it that PD is working on larger sizes, but they aren't available yet. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blitzkrieg 0 #14 November 22, 2004 i think you're right about the 120 being the biggest... either way, hold onto your shoes when you go from a sabre2 to katana. that's a huge diff. i got a handful of jumps on a ka107, it loves to stay in a dive (like a velocity) and has real easy front riser pressure. just my $.02 ~E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #15 November 22, 2004 QuoteQuotebut really want to move to the Katana 150 Unless I'm mistaken, currently the largest Katana that you can buy is a 120. Rumor has it that PD is working on larger sizes, but they aren't available yet. If you quote him fully he says "once it's out" I am a ways off from a 120 but a 135ish is looking nice in about a 1-1.5 years. Hopefully they have things figured out by then or something else nice comes along.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usskydiver 0 #16 November 23, 2004 Clay, my CAS calling former brother (don't go there again)..I'm glad you saved your ass. DON'T MAKE ME REPEAT THAT! To the others....(Yes, I'm sounding like your Dad...get over it)...the Mfr's have developed canopy "lines" for a reason...SO YOU DON'T GET HURT OR DIE!....and they have grown (as you have)...Abide by them...learn from them...To jump 2 models and a size (or 2 sizes and a model) is a recipe for surgery or death! (I've had a femoral nail since 1988). The Lesson... Learn YOUR canopy before you downsize/change models...can you do 10 downwind, into wind, crosswind...90's, 180's, 270's, 360's...whatever.. approaches CONSISTENLY before moving on? If you can't....don't change... It may be slightly more expensive to move slowly but you will be a better canopy pilot, example, instructor, mentor in the long run...and still be alive.. Just my thoughts.... Tim T. Team Paraclete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #17 December 7, 2004 Yes, you're correct. Currently the 150 isn't out yet, but 'rumor' has it that a couple of the larger sizes (150 being the largest) are still being tweaked and tested. At the moment I'm not ready for it anyway, but it's something to look forward to. Since I have a 'goal', I'll be analyzing and critiquing every swoop until it's ready, which just adds to the fun/challenge of skydiving!JShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #18 December 9, 2004 QuoteHmmm, interesting. I start my 180's on my Saber2 at 400'. I know the Saber2 has a steeper glide slope than a Stiletto, but didn't realize it was that close to the Vengeance... The glide ratio really doesn't have that much to do with how long a canopy dives. While my jedei is trimmed extremely nose down and dives forever, a samurai is much much flatter of a glide but will dive almost as long as a jedei at a similar wing loading. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #19 December 9, 2004 I guess I didn't really use the correct terminology. When I said glide slope, I probably should have said 'recovery arc'... My mind and fingers don't alway work well together... I won't embaress myself by trying to pretend I know something about canopy design, but I can definitely say that my Sabre2 190 stays in a dive significantly longer than the Stiletto 170. In defense of the Stiletto, a sharp pull on a toggle (just half way), and I'm above the canopy, looking at the horizon over the tail. I absolutely love flying the Stiletto; it's fast and very responsive, but (in my opinion) the riser pressure seems to be at least twice that of the Sabre2, even at the start of a riser turn. JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #20 December 9, 2004 Tru dat on the fact that the sabre 2 has a longer recovery arc than stilleto. I like the way the stilleto flies up high, I'm just not a fan of the short recovery arc. For some reason I think the sabre 2 has more front riser pressure than the stilleto. maybe I was in different conditoins. I've got about fifty jumps on a stilletto 120 but only about 10 jumps on a sabre 2. Stilletos are amazing for getting back from long spots though! Have fun with the sabre 2. Its a great canopy! Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #21 December 10, 2004 Quote In defense of the Stiletto, a sharp pull on a toggle (just half way), and I'm above the canopy, looking at the horizon over the tail. I absolutely love flying the Stiletto; it's fast and very responsive, but (in my opinion) the riser pressure seems to be at least twice that of the Sabre2, even at the start of a riser turn. You might try a Samurai. A lot of us Stiletto pilots (I put 600 jumps on my 120 before getting the Samura) like the control responsiveness and light pressures being there like a Stiletto, although it has a longer recovery arc and doesn't return to level flight without pilot input. It's trimmed steeper than a Stiletto, but flattens out nicely if you spread the rear risers a little. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #22 December 10, 2004 Hey Drew, Is that picture on your profile at the pond swoop out here in Brush? That was fun stuff. I remember you were there. Travis Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #23 December 13, 2004 QuoteAs was all too graphically illustrated Saturday..... Had you bounced it would have been dumb. Not only did you not bounce but you knew what you did wrong before it killed you... You were just being agressive Be safe bro.. Glad you are o.k. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #24 December 16, 2004 Hmmm - that's a thought. I haven't jumped in a few weeks, but once I get current again, maybe I'll look into demo'ing one. Your description sounds like it would be a good step prior to jumping a Katana. I'm a big PD fan, but you have me thinking this would be a much better canopy to get a little more 'elliptical experience' prior to moving to the Katana. Thanks for the great suggestion! JeffShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgr 0 #25 December 16, 2004 Drew, Did you transition directly from the Stil120 to the Sam105? If so, how did the higher w/l on the Sam feel compared to the Stiletto? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
