DrewEckhardt 0 #26 November 3, 2004 Quote That's a BASE wingloading and BASE jumpers successfully land themselves in crazy places all the time with F-111 canopies. . Which usually have a _lot_ less than a claimed 800 jumps (she's not the original owner so we don't know the real number. One canopy I bought probably had over twice the claimed number on it) . I know one other jumper who's said he'll sell his canopies after 100 jumps and buy new ones. A small woman under a PD190 should do fine if the fabric is OK (porosity test) and she can reach the stall point (check at altitude and take wraps if a full stall is not possible). We haven't estalblished whether either of these conditions is true. If the fabric leaks like a sieve a newer 190 would be a better choice. An _appropriate performance_ ZP 190 would be no faster than the PD 190 and not be a bad choice. PD's Navigator student canopy is ZP. Obviously a smaller canopy will be faster and is therefore a bad choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #27 November 3, 2004 butt BASE jumpers do not jumps canopies with 800-1100 jumps on them that have no landing left in them. this I know. we also have canopies designed with extra brake lines simply to assist in shutting them down. BASE and skydiving are not the same, please quit trying to compare them. also people who are in BASE have or should have exceptional and above average canopy piloting and landing/flaring skills. you are comparing apples to oranges. everyone should solicit advice and do exactly what she has done which is digest it and ask a qualified coach at her dz to answer all the wonderful questions that she has. ~Chachi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #28 November 3, 2004 Quotebutt BASE jumpers do not jumps canopies with 800-1100 jumps on them that have no landing left in them. this I know. not so much. that has more to do with the canopy no longer being able to withstand the opening shock and less to do with a mushy flare. QuoteBASE and skydiving are not the same, please quit trying to compare them. In BASE jumping you jump, open parachute, fly the parachute and then land the parachute. In Skydiving you jump, play around in the air, open parachute, fly the parachute and then land the parachute. No they are not the same. The biggest difference is the risk factor, but for the purpose of this topic they are similar enough to make a comparison. Quoteyou are comparing apples to oranges. More like green apples to red apples. Quoteeveryone should solicit advice Maybe so but not everyone needs to be so readily giving it. I made all of my student jumps on used up Raven4s which are 282 square feet. I stood them all up except for my first one and that was because my instructor flared me a little high so that he would have a little more time to scream "flare!" in case I brain locked. The used up Raven4s I made my student jumps on had around 1500 jumps on each of them. They flared just fine. I believe your advice is biased because you are against the use of all F111 canopies as you said earlier. Again there is nothing wrong with VampireGirl's canopy. If the problem can be fixed with the canopy she has then she's be better off spending her money on jumps (=more experience) instead of gambling a $1000 - $2000 on another canopy (ZP) when the problem she has may possibly be fixed by a rigger in <5 minutes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VampireGirl 0 #29 November 4, 2004 Ok, now i have had some time to read and think and talk about all of this info, I am making enquiries with my rigger about getting my porosity checked, checking my line trim and if I can fit a zp190 into my container. A good friend has offered to let me jump her spectre zp190 as a test to see if there is much of a difference and another good friend has jumped my rig and slid in (but he hadn't jumped for 4 months and it was muddy). He did say that there's nothing wrong with my canopy's flare. I appreciate all the advice, but definately don't want any more speed at the moment as that is what is scaring me at the mo'. Oh, another point, I have had lots of advice from a girl's point of view too and it is a girly thing too. (you girls out there will understand) and I am not trying to alienate anyone, but my point of reference on speed is so that I feel that I am actually coming in really fast on my 190, which is supposed to be docile and I definately DON'T WANT ANY MORE SPEED!! The other thing is POSITIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE!! I am working on my confidence, but unfortunately can't jump at the moment as I am suffering from a recurring injury which is one of the reasons for this post. The moment I am healed, I will be back up there and trying it out again. Thanks everyone. Safe and happy landings XX Sarahwww.sneale-create.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #30 November 4, 2004 QuoteQuotebutt BASE jumpers do not jumps canopies with 800-1100 jumps on them that have no landing left in them. this I know. not so much. that has more to do with the canopy no longer being able to withstand the opening shock and less to do with a mushy flare. QuoteBASE and skydiving are not the same, please quit trying to compare them. In BASE jumping you jump, open parachute, fly the parachute and then land the parachute. In Skydiving you jump, play around in the air, open parachute, fly the parachute and then land the parachute. No they are not the same. The biggest difference is the risk factor, but for the purpose of this topic they are similar enough to make a comparison. Quoteyou are comparing apples to oranges. More like green apples to red apples. Quoteeveryone should solicit advice Maybe so but not everyone needs to be so readily giving it. I made all of my student jumps on used up Raven4s which are 282 square feet. I stood them all up except for my first one and that was because my instructor flared me a little high so that he would have a little more time to scream "flare!" in case I brain locked. The used up Raven4s I made my student jumps on had around 1500 jumps on each of them. They flared just fine. I believe your advice is biased because you are against the use of all F111 canopies as you said earlier. Again there is nothing wrong with VampireGirl's canopy. If the problem can be fixed with the canopy she has then she's be better off spending her money on jumps (=more experience) instead of gambling a $1000 - $2000 on another canopy (ZP) when the problem she has may possibly be fixed by a rigger in <5 minutes. I completely disagree with your evaluation of BASE and skydiving, especially your gear knowlegde. For the purpose of not turning this into another argument thread, (you seem to like to pick apart posts) if you want to continue PM me. ~Chachi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #31 November 4, 2004 QuoteOh, another point, I have had lots of advice from a girl's point of view too and it is a girly thing too. (you girls out there will understand) I really don't think that is the case. I think that certain people tend to be more conservative, some have a hard time with the ground coming up at them and freak out a little. This includes both men and women and I think it is incorrect to say that is is a girly thing. I am a woman, and I had no problem with speed and still don't. In fact, if I had to choose only one part of the skydive for the rest of my life it would be landings, not freefall. I just want to make sure women don't read this and think that they have problems because they are women, I think that is completely incorrect. Many students have a rough time, all makes and modelsAngela Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #32 November 4, 2004 Quote. If the problem can be fixed with the canopy she has then she's be better off spending her money on jumps (=more experience) instead of gambling a $1000 - $2000 on another canopy (ZP) when the problem she has may possibly be fixed by a rigger in <5 minutes. Sure although on this side of the pond an older used ZP canopy like a Sabre or Monarch can be found for $300-$400. While it wouldn't open as softly as a Spectre, such a canopy would be perfectly serviceable until some one decided to sell it for about what they paid for it (net cost: $0). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #33 November 5, 2004 are you still talking? QuoteI completely disagree with your evaluation of BASE and skydiving, especially your gear knowlegde. For the purpose of not turning this into another argument thread, (you seem to like to pick apart posts) if you want to continue PM me I don't won't to continue with you, PM or otherwise. You are like a gnat so close to my eye my vision is blurry. bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"shu"bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"get away, get away"bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"i said, shu"bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"CLAP!" flat gnat Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #34 November 5, 2004 QuoteSure although on this side of the pond an older used ZP canopy like a Sabre or Monarch can be found for $300-$400. While it wouldn't open as softly as a Spectre, such a canopy would be perfectly serviceable until some one decided to sell it for about what they paid for it (net cost: $0). you have a good point, but that is assuming the problem is in fact the canopy and not the brake settings or her. At that wingloading she should be able to flare and land the canopy no matter how used up it is. A canopy like hers but one size larger and she probably wouldn't need to flare it to stand up the landing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #35 November 5, 2004 First warning... tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,565 #36 November 5, 2004 Yet another opinion. But I do have a few hundred jumps on lightly-loaded F111 canopies of various ages. It's a skill, like any other. First, you want to make sure that you have enough arm length to get a good flare out of your canopy -- you probably do, but if you're quite tiny, and it takes a long flare to stop your canopy, it'll never slow all the way down. Having a friend jump is who's your size and skilled will be a good way to tell. If you're concerned about the speed, then you can a. try jumping only on days with at least 8 or so mph wind, always going into the wind, for awhile b. practice a nice slow, controlled flare from the top of the jump until 1000', then focus on getting to the DZ, then landing c. (and this is probably the most helpful) -- DON'T LOOK STRAIGHT DOWN at the end for a few jumps. When you get to flare height, look more toward the horizon as you flare. You'll know when you're about to touch down, but you won't have as strong a sensation of going incredibly fast. Still prepare to PLF until you have this timing down. Not looking straight down lets more of your senses help you to land -- not just your eyes, but some of your sense of proprioception as well; it puts the landing into a bigger context. There's nothing wrong with PLFs that you plan, or that you execute to save your body. I used to have a friend with a weak leg who always PLF'd. He'd say that yes, he fell down, but he always got up, too. So learn a good PLF, and then you won't be as scared when things don't go so well. Good luck; you CAN land, you ARE landing every single jump, and, well, you've walked away from a number of jumps, so you're obviously doing something right. Try to focus on the bigger picture rather than the smaller one, and it might help. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #37 November 5, 2004 I don't disagree that she could land nicely under the canopy she has. I do question the amount of skill required to do so. I watched three different people practically pound in all summer long on old used gear that was worn out. Towards the end of the season I haven't seen any of them. One did buy a newer canopy and it helped her to learn rather than fearing every landing and not wanting to jump. My personal experience, when I was still pre-A I had been jumping a 1 year old S2-190. It got cut away by another student and was out of service for a month cause some parts got lost. That left me with the options of jumping a old F111 (Larger) main or downsizing to a S2-170. I put 5 jumps on the old gear. Got a few OK landings but for the most part the quality of my landings decreased significantly. My main instructor handed me newer gear next time I showed up and my landings improved significantly. I think there is more skill required to get a good landing out of really old and abused gear than the average new jumper has. I also don't think its a good learning tool.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #38 November 5, 2004 QuoteSure although on this side of the pond an older used ZP canopy like a Sabre or Monarch can be found for $300-$400. While it wouldn't open as softly as a Spectre, such a canopy would be perfectly serviceable until some one decided to sell it for about what they paid for it (net cost: $0). I remember sveral years back there was/is a treatment that you can do to F111 fabric that will give it back much of it's porosity. Anybody know anything about this? Also I was also just thinking about the idea to get a used cheap ZP canopy. That would only set her back $300-$400. That is also assuming that a ZP canopy the same size will fi in her rig. If not she'll have to get another rig all together and that could set her back about $2000. I still think she should check her brake settings and maybe look into whatever that treatment is that you can give F111 to get the porosity back before considering getting another canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #39 November 5, 2004 QuoteAlso I was also just thinking about the idea to get a used cheap ZP canopy. That would only set her back $300-$400. That is also assuming that a ZP canopy the same size will fi in her rig. If not she'll have to get another rig all together and that could set her back about $2000. Unfortunately VG jumps in the UK so canopies in that size for that sort of money are a bit like rocking horse poo!! Oh and for information she is 5'10" ish and about 145lbs so she I don't think reach or loading should be a major problemNever try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #40 November 5, 2004 Quote I remember sveral years back there was/is a treatment that you can do to F111 fabric that will give it back much of it's porosity. Anybody know anything about this? Brian Germaine mentioned doing it during a class. I think he still does it, so if someone is interested, could start with a note to him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beverly 1 #41 November 10, 2004 There has been some good discussion, the main points coming out is that old gear is not great to learn from, and this is what students get lumped with. Wendy had some good comments too! Just a note on the girly thing, not all girls are princesses, but there is a degree of caution. So go have a fab time under different canopies and see what suites you. Here is to safe landings and no more injuries! Cheers from Sunny SA! I think true friendship is under-rated Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #42 November 10, 2004 QuoteJust a note on the girly thing, not all girls are princesses, but there is a degree of caution. Everyone should be cautious to a degree (or we'd all be in big trouble!). I just don't think that gender plays a huge part, maybe the way someone grows up, what activities they have done in the past, past experiences, etc. I, for one, have no problem with the speed, and since almost day one i've wanted something faster... now i'm finally content on a decently fast canopy. I understand that some women will be more cautious than the norm, but so will some men (there are many at my dz). QuoteThere has been some good discussion, the main points coming out is that old gear is not great to learn from, and this is what students get lumped with. Good point. If she doesn't like the speed, and isn't getting a good flare, I think upsizing a bit and getting a zp canopy would probably help both. jmo of course. -A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VampireGirl 0 #43 November 11, 2004 I have considered upsizing and am hoping to have a good long chat about it with my rigger this weekend. At the same time, I am also going to jump (haven't for a while,) weather permitting of course!! And "ATTACK" my landing!!! (I have been dreaming about it, literally). Will let you all know how I get on. XX Sarahwww.sneale-create.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #44 November 11, 2004 QuoteI have considered upsizing and am hoping to have a good long chat about it with my rigger this weekend. At the same time, I am also going to jump (haven't for a while,) weather permitting of course!! And "ATTACK" my landing!!! (I have been dreaming about it, literally). Will let you all know how I get on. XX Sarah NICE!!! I think that you should definitely consider the upsize if what you're afraid of is the speed. It might really help you out:) Take care and have some good jumps **AND LANDINGS**! -A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VampireGirl 0 #45 November 15, 2004 Just to round this thread off: I jumped this weekend, it was windy and that's why I got my butt up to the DZ asap!! I managed to land on my feet on both jumps and am in one peice! I wanted to make everyone aware of what my main issue was and how I managed to solve it. I have been having the incorrect mental attitude!! People have said that i should have a mantra as I am flaring, I have tried all sorts of things to say to myself, this weekend I used: " I CAN DO IT " which i said in my head as I flared (I was scared I was flaring too high, but I came down like a feather both times). I had great skydives too on both occasions and a great weekend with great people so I am now ready for my long weekend at empuria and intend on coming back, having learnt more about my canopy. Porosity and lines do not need to be checked and all I have to do is get out there and DO IT!! XX Sarahwww.sneale-create.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #46 November 16, 2004 Nice one S - should have seen the smile on your face!!!! ANd your second onewas in really low wind as well so good job!!!Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #47 November 16, 2004 Congrats! Good for you!! -A Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VampireGirl 0 #48 March 13, 2005 Hi everybody, just a quick follow up to this post. I have just got back from Lillo where I spent three days learning how to fly my canopy with the help of Brian Vacher. He is an absolute hunny, great teacher, and really knows his stuff when it comes to flying canopies. He is the first person who has said anything good about my canopy and I now know that I CAN get a good flare out of it and land safely, doing a progressive flare. I would highly recommend anybody who is flying a canopy (regardless of jump numbers) to get on his course, he is an awesome teacher (and cute too!!) I have come away with so much more knowledge about my canopy, but now I am covered in bruises from snowboarding!! Brian Vacher rocks!! XX Sarahwww.sneale-create.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
