jerry81 10 #1 November 21, 2002 Hi all. I'm a low-time jumper (nevertheless, a complete addict since jump #10) and intending to buy a used rig sometime soon (in a month or two). I'm currently jumping a student skymaster 270 with a naro container (a bit like having a large suitcase strapped to your back, the whole thing weighs about 25lbs) so I guess I'm in for some major downsizing. I got my eyes set on two available complete rigs, a cruiselite215 main with a racer container or a teardrop with a pd190 nine-cell. I can't say which canopy would suit me better until i've demoed them both (and I can't do that because I don't have my license papers just yet), although I suspect I might like the smaller one better . The thing I'd really like to know is the freefly-safety of both container systems (both have BOC throw-out pilot chutes). I intend to do mostly freefly/freestyle jumps (belly-falling is just not as fun) and I know some systems are less suitable for that (although I did learn to sit/stand with the aforementioned suitcase which I don't believe was ever intended to go vertical in freefall ). So I'd be very grateful for any advice/experience anyone may have on these two rigs. Also, since this is my first post on these forums, virtual beers all around!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sonic 0 #2 November 21, 2002 The older racers and teardrops aren't really that FF friendly. Things to look for - is there any exposed bridle? Do the riser covers have tuck tabs (or at least SOLID velcro)? Are the flaps very secure? The only teardrop that is truely FF friendly is the superfly (i got one and quite like it).----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #3 November 21, 2002 Next question.. why F111 mains? Why not a same sized ZP main?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 5 #4 November 21, 2002 Just be careful when you jump the canopies to demo them. It is a HUGE change going from your 270 to a PD190. I will also express concerns about freefly friendliness. Older gear is almost always not very FF friendly. Have a rigger look any candidate rigs over and perhaps suggest modifications to make them more friendly. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerry81 10 #5 November 21, 2002 OK, so the things to watch out for are bridle exposure, secure riser covers, tight flaps...anything else? How important is a butt strap and what material should be used for it? As for the canopy choices; currently, these are the only two available. If I find a ZP main in my price/size range I'll definitely try it out, too. Just how much does the material affect the flight characteristics -are zp canopies more responsive, do they glide better, offer longer swoops? (Not that I'm planning on trying to swoop with my future parachute immediately, but I'd like to get some surf out of it once I know how it handles) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #6 November 21, 2002 my guess is that judging from the canopies in them, those are older containers, and therefore don't offer some of the protective features of todays containers. The "F-111" material degrades fairly quickly from a porosity standpoint, and some point, they pretty much won't flare well, and you'll start pounding in. My first rig was old gutter gear, but I didn't do any on-purpose free-flight with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bobsoutar 0 #7 November 21, 2002 You also need the spandex pocket to be tight. F111 canopies wear out quicker than ZP and then they start to dump you the last few feet (so you may need strong knees). ZP canopies tend to glide better than F111 and the material will last much longer so you normally only need to replace the lines every several hundred jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerry81 10 #8 November 21, 2002 Damn! Knees are the weakest point of my otherwise quite strong legs- I actually needed surgery after a minor windsurfing accident and my landing #5 (flare too high, drop 5 feet, make a crater, you know how it goes ) had me limping for a week (didn't stop me from jumping, though. very foolish, I know). I guess I'll have to start searching for an affordable zp main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sonic 0 #9 November 21, 2002 Quote How important is a butt strap I think if you're doing a lot of sit etc it's a good idea to have the leg straps tied together with on of these. Mine are just held together with a pull up ----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites councilman24 37 #10 November 21, 2002 Don't think you want the cruiselite, otherwise known as a cruisefright. For the time, it flew fast but didn't flare anybetter than anyother 7 cell F-111 type. They were popular with some folks but are certainly not something I'd recommend, even if you were buying a F-111. Nothing wrong with the PD 190 for a first canopy. Especially if the price is right, it isn't worn out, and you realize you won't be surfing. Probably do need to find a newer rig for freefly. Terry I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoby 0 #11 November 21, 2002 I've put a number of jumps on the PD190 at my DZ. It's the only student canopy they have that hasn't got a lot of jumps on it, and as such is a pleasure to fly and land. I'd say that if it has relatively few jumps and is a screaming bargain, then it would be a decent first canopy. You will outgrow it before you wear it out. However, don't expect to sell it for much later on. What is your exit weight? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerry81 10 #12 November 21, 2002 Well, the rig IS a screaming bargain- in fact it's so cheap I'd be quite suspicious if I didn't know the guy selling it- he wouldn't try to sell me (or anyone, for that matter) a worn-out canopy. However, I don't know the exact number of jumps this canopy has (the cruiselite I mentioned has 150)- will have to ask him. Oh, and my exit weight? With my current gear I'd say about 190lbs- that's 160lbs of me, 5lbs of clothes and the rig amounts to the rest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sonic 0 #13 November 21, 2002 If it's a really good deal, get it and do a lot of falt flying gaining skills. Then save money and get a nice FF friendly one later.----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 5 #14 November 21, 2002 I've got a fair number of jumps on a cruiselite, when I was much younger and lighter. I wasn't that happy with it back then. I'd be much less happy with it now. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #15 November 22, 2002 QuoteHow important is a butt strap One came with my rig but I don't like it. Used it a few times but it made the rig uncomfortable and hard to put on. I just make sure my leg straps are nice and tight and don't have any problems. 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Sonic 0 #2 November 21, 2002 The older racers and teardrops aren't really that FF friendly. Things to look for - is there any exposed bridle? Do the riser covers have tuck tabs (or at least SOLID velcro)? Are the flaps very secure? The only teardrop that is truely FF friendly is the superfly (i got one and quite like it).----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #3 November 21, 2002 Next question.. why F111 mains? Why not a same sized ZP main?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #4 November 21, 2002 Just be careful when you jump the canopies to demo them. It is a HUGE change going from your 270 to a PD190. I will also express concerns about freefly friendliness. Older gear is almost always not very FF friendly. Have a rigger look any candidate rigs over and perhaps suggest modifications to make them more friendly. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #5 November 21, 2002 OK, so the things to watch out for are bridle exposure, secure riser covers, tight flaps...anything else? How important is a butt strap and what material should be used for it? As for the canopy choices; currently, these are the only two available. If I find a ZP main in my price/size range I'll definitely try it out, too. Just how much does the material affect the flight characteristics -are zp canopies more responsive, do they glide better, offer longer swoops? (Not that I'm planning on trying to swoop with my future parachute immediately, but I'd like to get some surf out of it once I know how it handles) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #6 November 21, 2002 my guess is that judging from the canopies in them, those are older containers, and therefore don't offer some of the protective features of todays containers. The "F-111" material degrades fairly quickly from a porosity standpoint, and some point, they pretty much won't flare well, and you'll start pounding in. My first rig was old gutter gear, but I didn't do any on-purpose free-flight with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsoutar 0 #7 November 21, 2002 You also need the spandex pocket to be tight. F111 canopies wear out quicker than ZP and then they start to dump you the last few feet (so you may need strong knees). ZP canopies tend to glide better than F111 and the material will last much longer so you normally only need to replace the lines every several hundred jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #8 November 21, 2002 Damn! Knees are the weakest point of my otherwise quite strong legs- I actually needed surgery after a minor windsurfing accident and my landing #5 (flare too high, drop 5 feet, make a crater, you know how it goes ) had me limping for a week (didn't stop me from jumping, though. very foolish, I know). I guess I'll have to start searching for an affordable zp main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sonic 0 #9 November 21, 2002 Quote How important is a butt strap I think if you're doing a lot of sit etc it's a good idea to have the leg straps tied together with on of these. Mine are just held together with a pull up ----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #10 November 21, 2002 Don't think you want the cruiselite, otherwise known as a cruisefright. For the time, it flew fast but didn't flare anybetter than anyother 7 cell F-111 type. They were popular with some folks but are certainly not something I'd recommend, even if you were buying a F-111. Nothing wrong with the PD 190 for a first canopy. Especially if the price is right, it isn't worn out, and you realize you won't be surfing. Probably do need to find a newer rig for freefly. Terry I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoby 0 #11 November 21, 2002 I've put a number of jumps on the PD190 at my DZ. It's the only student canopy they have that hasn't got a lot of jumps on it, and as such is a pleasure to fly and land. I'd say that if it has relatively few jumps and is a screaming bargain, then it would be a decent first canopy. You will outgrow it before you wear it out. However, don't expect to sell it for much later on. What is your exit weight? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #12 November 21, 2002 Well, the rig IS a screaming bargain- in fact it's so cheap I'd be quite suspicious if I didn't know the guy selling it- he wouldn't try to sell me (or anyone, for that matter) a worn-out canopy. However, I don't know the exact number of jumps this canopy has (the cruiselite I mentioned has 150)- will have to ask him. Oh, and my exit weight? With my current gear I'd say about 190lbs- that's 160lbs of me, 5lbs of clothes and the rig amounts to the rest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sonic 0 #13 November 21, 2002 If it's a really good deal, get it and do a lot of falt flying gaining skills. Then save money and get a nice FF friendly one later.----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #14 November 21, 2002 I've got a fair number of jumps on a cruiselite, when I was much younger and lighter. I wasn't that happy with it back then. I'd be much less happy with it now. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #15 November 22, 2002 QuoteHow important is a butt strap One came with my rig but I don't like it. Used it a few times but it made the rig uncomfortable and hard to put on. I just make sure my leg straps are nice and tight and don't have any problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
