Recovery Arch - Toggles Vs. Risers

[goose491 0]

Hello all,

Hoping you can help settle a small (but important) debate I'm having about landings. Particularily about altitude lost and the recovery arch of a canopy using riser turns versus toggles.

My position is that there is a greater loss of altitude when using toggles because there is a longer recovery arch. My position is that when you hook it using a toggle, you commit yourself to the dive for a longer period of time. You've deformed the canopy to make it turn. It turns because one side is slowed and the other is allowed to crank around it... In terms of loading, you are no longer directly 'under' the canopy but more so than during a riser hook.
-It turns -It dives -You catch up to the turn -You swing out to get under the canopy.

My position with the risers is that you've made less commitment to a dive. The turn is initiated by banking the canopy (it is not deformed). You still need to 'swing' to get under the canopy -in terms of even loading- after it has started to dive but the need to 'catch up' to the turn created is lessend as the turn was 'cleaner'?.. There was no abrubt unloading of one side.. like relative to the other?
-It turns and dives at the same time -You swing out to get under it.

His position is that there is no difference in the recovery arch either way . And that the coversation is to 'Physical' (No, I mean about physics sillies.. we're not hitting each other ) I just don't think I can word it right... like, read what I've typed man! It's got me scratchin' my own head.

Anyhoo, any input may help... particularily if it isin't too hard to understand.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[proswooper 2]

Just looking at your jump numbers, and i apologise if they are substantially more in reality, I dont think you would be in a good position to argue either one of the two sides to that arguement.

Theorising is also going to be difficult with inexperience in this area, as any professional or even remotely competant high performance canopy pilot will attest to.

my point is your thread is going to be torn apart by some of the more blunt people who read it.

if you want info on which is going to create more speed and a longer recovery arc (even just with regards to physics).then look at what the best canopy pilots in the world are doing, with respect to toggles or risers, then ask them why they prefer risers and then re think your arguement.Keep your mind open.

all the best and good luck

Paul

[nicknitro71 0]

you need to read Brian G.'s book.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Spizzzarko 0]

risers.

[goose491 0]

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my point is your thread is going to be torn apart by some of the more blunt people who read it.

My friend that's the point. Tear my theory apart piece by piece if need be. That's why I posted it.

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if you want info on which is going to create more speed and a longer recovery arc

Yes and no. The purpose of this thread is not for me to obtain tips on building more speed nor creating a longer recovery arc.

I told a friend that he commits himself to diving for a longer period of time when he whips a toggle then when he turns using a riser. He disagrees. So one of us is wrong. So one of us stands to learn something.

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Then look at what the best canopy pilots in the world are doing, with respect to toggles or risers, then ask them why they prefer risers and then re think your arguement.Keep your mind open.

Well you're talking to the right guy about keeping an open mind. However, at this point in your reply, I truly think I haven't explained well enough, what it is I'm asking.

I realise that pro swoopers are using risers because they can keep it diving longer and they can build up more speed... but can they not also "dig out of the corner" much easier and quicker if the turn was initiated with risers as opposed to toggles? It's the commitment to the dive that worries me.

I state that if you whip a toggle, creating say a 90 turn, there is a certain amount time it takes before you are back under your canopy. I beleive that all things remaining the same, but I whip a 90 turn with a riser instead, it will take less time before I'm back under canopy....

There is no argument that if you want to continue diving, it can be done. Take the example up high... we're not landing... just turning... now you don't have to feel guilty about making a newbies landings more dangerous.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[proswooper 2]

it is good to have an open mind and please dont read what i am saying as an attack on you at any stage.


Ok I am starting to understand more of what you are asking.

you are almost comparing apples and oranges because a 90 toggle turn and a 90 front riser turn done in exact same conditions for the exact same length of time should and in my experience does produce different altitude loss.

the risers producing more altitide loss.

the more speed you have the more lift you obviously have to pull out, but also. if near to the ground you have less time to deal with the altitude loss at greater speeds.

for all practical purposes and to more answer your question there are the SAME elements of COMMITMENT in both riser and toggles. ie either way it is dangerous and are going to encounter a certain recovery arc that you should know without a doubt, how much altitude you are going to lose BEFORE initiating either a toggle or front riser hook. and never be below that altitude for that manouver,

if you are going to commit yourself to doing any form of higher performance landing then the only comitment you should make is learning the recovery arc of the canopy before ever trying it near the ground.

if you are going to do one or the other i suggest (with appropriate experience and proper coaching) using risers only.

I hope i have answered what you are asking exactly.

take it easy

Paul

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

Before posting I see the need for a disclaimer
My jumpnumber is just what you can read in my profile so if you want you can dismiss everything I say because at 450 jumps I can't now anything anyway...

If you want the scientific approach I think you have too many variables. What you need to make this equasion right is starting from a certain moment after the initiation of the turn where for both approaches the speed is the same. (same chute same wingload yadiyada...)

If you can figure out at wich angle you would be in both situations at a certain speed the answer to your question will be obvious!

I would be a bad test-subject because I'm waiting for a new line-set and untill they arrive have a recovery arc of about 3.7 ft.

"Don't make me come down there" - God.

My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html
Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio

[PhreeZone 20]

Risers would have the longest recovery arc in terms of distance. If you snap riser hook a 270 it takes a long time for the canopy to return to its natural airspeed. But if you snap hook a 270 on toggles the canopy starts to recover almost instantly towards its natural airspeed.

The toggle is clearly more dangerous since you are starting with part of the canopy moved towards a stall right off the top.

It terms of time... a riser snap takes longer, but a toggle puts you higher on the canopy then a riser hook does.

Try it.. Fly side by side and have one person do a snap toggle 180 and the other a snap riser 180.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[goose491 0]

That helps a lot. And thanks for the PMs too people.

Have a feeling I should have described my landings for all to see beforehand. As far as my landings go, I'm currently doing a 180 front riser carve initiated at about 400ft. from a small amount of breaks on a Samurai 136 loaded at about 1.2 to 1.

Though the canopy is diving the entire time, I feel I can control the steepness of the dive when I've got a riser in each hand. I also realise that if I ever had to "Ooops! Better not continue this turn!" and take an out, I've got the full range of my breaks to flaire with(read: 'dig' in this case)

So then, new question:

... Just why is toggle whipping a bad thing again?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[PhreeZone 20]

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Just why is toggle whipping a bad thing again?

Because you are fully committed as soon as you do it and your bail options are severly limited. If you do a snap toggle turn that means you have to be low thanks to the lack of an ability to continue to hold or increase a dive like risers give you. If you are 25 feet too low that means that as you are trying to dig the canopy is moving towards a stall. A stall at 35 feet is just as bad as being 5 feet too low

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

Scientific: adding or taking away dynamic energy.
In toggle turns you convert dynamic energy into potential energy which by gravity is converted into dynamic energy again.

On risers you leave out the useless part.

"Don't make me come down there" - God.

My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html
Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio

[freeflyn 0]

This issue was recently addressed, please refer to; "Dangers in toggle turns vs front riser turns (Adria's accident)" in Swooping and Canopy Control. Sorry I don't know how to do the clicky thing.

[PhreeZone 20]

Here you are: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1211490#1211490

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[goose491 0]

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Just why is toggle whipping a bad thing again?

Because you are fully committed as soon as you do it and your bail options are severly limited.

But that's precisely precisely what I'm saying! My quote:

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I realise that pro swoopers are using risers because they can keep it diving longer and they can build up more speed... but can they not also "dig out of the corner" much easier and quicker if the turn was initiated with risers as opposed to toggles? It's the commitment to the dive that worries me.

I think I understand what's going on now. It's my misuse of the term "recovery arc".

Whip a turn with toggles or come in hot on risers... All those of you saying the recovery arc is the same are absolutely right... But I'm sitting here saying "NO! It's much shorter using fronts!!!" only because I'm neglecting the 'natural' part of 'natural recovery arc'

The canopy that was turned using risers can be coaxed out of the dive much faster and easier by the pilot but it requires input. I suppose my argument should then morph to:

"It's easier to f*ck with the natural recovery arc of a given canopy if the turn was initiated using risers."

or

"Use a toggle turn and your commited to a dive for a longer period of time before you've built up enough speed that an input can get you out."

or simply

"It's harder to dig out of the corner when you've whipped a toggle to get there as oppose to using fronts."


Am I making my concerns a little more clear?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[JTMax 0]

I'm pretty new to these forums so not sure how to quote anybody, but if i can refer back to the start of AiRpollUtiOn's post and particularly his 'disclaimer about his jump numbers' remark.

This is something that seems to happen a lot on this forum. A guy/gal posts something innocent, and sometimes naively, about swooping and the first thing that happens is he/she is flamed for there jump numbers.

Before I go any further I'm not trying to put myself up there for anybody to throw shit at me coz I am in no way trying to tout myself as a bad ass skydiver let alone a swooper.

But it does annoy me when guys like me want to get information or advice and it gets shunned because of our skill level.

I've been on a few canopy piloting courses here in the UK and regularly attend the UK Tour events (if only to watch and film). On a recent course of 30 canopy pilots, I ended up on the final day's swooping seminar with 2 other pilots.
If its all about numbers then these guys stats would probably make you think they knew what they were doing until you looked at their logbooks. One had 1200 jumps and the other had 750, compared to my 170 at the time.
The point I want to make is that neither of these pilots had touched their front risers or tried any type of performance landing manouever before that seminar. This was my second course of instruction with the instructor and had been working on building my skills for over 18 months and over 100 jumps, nothing big but still considered high performance.

So I guess I'm saying how can I feel I can post a question or seek advice if I only stand to get shot down like the others???

[goose491 0]

Thanks man. Firstly though, I don't feel I was beeing flammed at all. My request was not very clear and it very well could have been me asking how to get more swoop. The first response I got, including the disclaimer, I feal was a good one.

Having said that, I agree that what you're refering to happens a lot. This sport is comprised of Skygods and Newbies and nothing in between.

However, I'd rather see the newbies get flammed and keep coming back... then simply having their "How do I kill myself harder" questions answered by people that don't know the first thing about them... And then read about the results in the incidents forum.

Oh yeah, and to 'quote' somebody, you would click "quote" instead of "reply"... their text will appear in the text box you type in. You can also just be typing a reply and type something they said with the {reply} symbole in front of it and the {\reply} symbol after.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[davelepka 4]

OK, how about this:

Your canopy relies on your body weight swinging around to facilitate changes in roll or pitch. To make an opposite change on any axis, your bodyweight will have to first return to center, then it can swing out to enact another change. The time it takes for your weight to return to the center is when you have little control over your canopy (the term 'center' is general, and if you're close to centered thats good enough, but if your canopy is on level with you, thats bad).

A toggle turn will move your weight further from the center than a riser turn, resulting in a longer period where you don't have control over your canopy.

So what is shorter on a riser turn is the time it takes your weight to re-center itself. The dive after your weight has re-centered is dependent on the speed of the turn, and the WL of the canopy.

Lets not forget that you can induce a line twist with too much toggle input. Yet another reason to stay away from toggle turns.

Edit:

Newbies don't get a hard time ASKING questions, it's when they answer them incorrectly that they get shit. Also, if you ask a question, and argue the answer, or ask a question about something you're not ready for, that will get you some shit too.

[goose491 0]

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A toggle turn will move your weight further from the center than a riser turn, resulting in a longer period where you don't have control over your canopy.

Emphasis mine. What's I've higlighted was the culprit for me saying "longer recovery arc"... I get it though.

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So what is shorter on a riser turn is the time it takes your weight to re-center itself. The dive after your weight has re-centered is dependent on the speed of the turn, and the WL of the canopy.

Yeah Yeah Yeah!! And more importantly, after your weight has re-centered, you are capable of stopping the dive with input.

What was I trying to sell my friend on is that you can get out of the dive sooner if you need to.

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Newbies don't get a hard time ASKING questions..

That's just not true on these boards. Not true at all. Peeps have got: "With your jump numbers, you shouldn't even be concerned with....x" programmed as hot keys in here. But whatever, it's safer that way anyhow.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Samurai136 0]

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"It's harder to dig out of the corner when you've whipped a toggle to get there as oppose to using fronts."

This is conceptually the right idea.

As a Samurai pilot there is something you should watch out for, over confidence in your wing. I have been where you are presently at as a pilot; learning on the Samurai. It has tremendous ability to 'dig out' of the corner and still swoop for some distance. This lends itself to flying a bit further into the corner because you learn you can dig out.

Avoid piloting the samurai into the corner and you'll learn more about its recovery arc. Try getting off the risers higher and let the canopy fly to your plane out altitude. It will make for a smoother recovery arc, maintain more speed into the surf and a assist in learning the timing of the process as a whole.
Keep in mind that pro-swoopers get their best swoops by not going into the corner.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[goose491 0]

Thanks for the tips.

I certainly love my Sammy!

I'll not become complacent with it


Edit: Hey! I've always loved your Avatar btw. I'm watching Ninja tonight with some friends too!

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[j3zz 0]

Snapping at the risers,

Maybe not entirely on the topic but I seam to recall seeing someone doing a 180 snap hook with his risers and putting in a twist he was lucky that time and did not get injured.

So there are 2 types of risers hooks, lets call them a Carve and a Snap, it would seam to me that there are a lot of similarities in the level of commitment in a toogle hook and a riser snap, the level of commitment in a controlled carve is less as you do not commit to the full radius of the turn and can at any time reduce the intended radius ie you could start intending to do a 180 but end doing a 120, were as from what I have seen of snaps and toggle hooks you tend to commit and if you mess up you are in trouble

Comments appreciated,,

FYI I am not doing high performance landings as yet but am working towards front riser carves

"Now I know why the birds fly"
Hinton Skydivers

[skyhighkiy 0]

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you need to read Brian G.'s book.

I 2nd that

BE THE BUDDHA!