Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :)

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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In landing you would never want to go past the point where the canopy begins to stall Right?

Maybe I'm daft, I don't know? And I'm sure someone will come along and say I'm full of it. But a wing (or a canopy in this case) can stall at any attitude and at any airspeed. I could be going a gazillion miles an hour straight at the earth and be in a stall. So unless you're in the habit of not completing your flare and pounding in before you need to, you're stalling your canopy on every successful landing you make. Remember pulling down on your toggles is changing the shape of your wing in much the same way as extending flaps on an airplane. It allows the wing (or canopy) to fly at a slower airspeed. At some point, you will lose enough airspeed where the airflow over the wing (or canopy) is disrupted causing it to stall.

We are flying in a very dynamic environment with a dynamic wing. There is no "it's always going to stall here" toggle stroke. What Tim and Chuck are referring to (hopefully I'm not putting words in their mouth) is practicing your stall recognition. It's that seat of the pants feel pilots refer to as they loose their lift, they get that sinking feeling and they are stalling their wing.

If I'm in the middle of a swoop and all of a sudden an obstacle appears in front of me (at a reasonable stopping distance). I need to shut down my canopy by adding more toggle input (not too much to pop me up in the air), changing the shape of my wing and inducing a stall. My touch down will be more abrupt than if I held it. But I've stalled my canopy. And on the reverse side, a good swooping canopy pilot (I wish I was better) is able to detect that seat of the pants feel, add the proper amount of toggle input, changing the shape of the wing, allowing the wing to fly even slower and increase their swoop distance. Of course we're not flying powered wings, so ultimately we loose enough airspeed where the air can no longer flow over the wing and we stall our canopies.

So unless you're in the habit of cratering (which I doubt you are with 300+ jumps). You're stalling your canopy on every successful landing you make.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[hookitt 1]

Depends on the canopy. Big ole f111 canopies will fly backwards, and you can turn them in both directions. Not only is it fun, it's just exploring canopy flight. If you know exactly where the stall point is and what it feels like when it hits it, you can use that information when shooting accuracy or just hanging in deep brakes, waiting for your slot in the landing pattern... etc..

Do you really need to? Well, no. You can simply use a canopy for transportation to the ground if you want to.

Maybe an experienced CRW Dawg can help answer this as well.

[chachi 0]

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I have fully stalled my canopy. But I still don't really see the advantage in fully stalling as opposed to just knowing at what point the canopy begins to stall. In landing you would never want to go past the point where the canopy begins to stall Right?

There comes a point when it's common sense. I'm not going to answer that

My question in that is what more would I learn from fully stalling the canopy? Am I missing something.

you asked in your post would there be benefit from going past the stall point on landing, think about , oh, oh, of course you wouldn't want to. the point of learning the stall point is actually knowing when it will stall not just thinking you know. unless you actually stall the canopy, and i mean trash it back to freefall you do not know where that point is, you know close to where it is but not the feeling immediately before the canopy breaks apart and sends you to freefall. knowing where this point is is beneficial when learning rears, but also knowing how far you can get toward the stall point when flying with others in the sky. knowing you can sink it down into the flying formation but not stall it right on top of your buddy is a nice skill.

here is my buddies version of learning your canopy. grab a hand full of everything and pull on it. learn up high whst every input you can throw at your canopy will do. hop and pops are great from low altitudes to learn but actually going out at 14K and pulling and then really flying your canopy around will teach you sooo much. give it a shot, fucken grab it all, front risers, rear risers, one of each, you name it. do it up high, then you will really learn what it can do.

~Chachi

[Steel 0]

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In landing you would never want to go past the point where the canopy begins to stall Right?

Maybe I'm daft, I don't know? And I'm sure someone will come along and say I'm full of it. But a wing (or a canopy in this case) can stall at any attitude and at any airspeed. I could be going a gazillion miles an hour straight at the earth and be in a stall. So unless you're in the habit of not completing your flare and pounding in before you need to, you're stalling your canopy on every successful landing you make. Remember pulling down on your toggles is changing the shape of your wing in much the same way as extending flaps on an airplane. It allows the wing (or canopy) to fly at a slower airspeed. At some point, you will lose enough airspeed where the airflow over the wing (or canopy) is disrupted causing it to stall.

We are flying in a very dynamic environment with a dynamic wing. There is no "it's always going to stall here" toggle stroke. What Tim and Chuck are referring to (hopefully I'm not putting words in their mouth) is practicing your stall recognition. It's that seat of the pants feel pilots refer to as they loose their lift, they get that sinking feeling and they are stalling their wing.

short answer, no.
It will take time to give a detailed explanation and I am about to walk out the door and leave work. SoI won't be typing it out now. But I will very quickly say that your canopy will always stall at the same amount of tail deflection, regardless of your speed. This is why high speed stalls are possible. If not you would always bleed off your airspeed before stalling. I expect that somebody else here can give a more detailed explanation. If not I will later on tonight or sometime tomorrow.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[skyhighkiy 0]

heey! dag nabbit!

teach me how to fly backwards!

BE THE BUDDHA!

[hookitt 1]

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here is my buddies version of learning your canopy. grab a hand full of everything and pull on it. learn up high whst every input you can throw at your canopy will do. hop and pops are great from low altitudes to learn but actually going out at 14K and pulling and then really flying your canopy around will teach you sooo much. give it a shot, fucken grab it all, front risers, rear risers, one of each, you name it. do it up high, then you will really learn what it can do.

In a nutshell... what he said.

[hookitt 1]

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teach me how to fly backwards!

That'll cost you a road trip to California.

[skyhighkiy 0]

hmmmmm.....interesting proposition.....


well, until then, what is the procedure one goesthrough to fly backwards?

BE THE BUDDHA!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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your canopy will always stall at the same amount of tail deflection, regardless of your speed. This is why high speed stalls are possible.

I'm no canopy guru (some respectable canopy guru step in here any time), but high speed stalls on a wing are caused by abrupt attitude changes. As a licensed pilot as you claim to be, you should know this. Why is a canopy any different?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[hookitt 1]

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well, until then, what is the procedure one goesthrough to fly backwards?

Argh!!!... I need to work

I can't teach over the internet. You're on a canopy that won't like backwards to much but it CAN... be done.

Personally, I'd go out and stall it, then here's how you back spin...
Don't go nuts and use a ton of input your first try because you will spin up the canopy.. and that can result in badness

Pull toggles down untill the canopy stalls. (that's basically how you fly backwards too) then raise one toggle, and hold on. It WILL scare you. and eventually it will spiral backwards.

Radical input will cause problems so just because it can be done, doesn't mean you should try it.

Good luck!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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teach me how to fly backwards!

Go hook it up backwards, get video and tell us about your experiences.

Why the #### do you want to fly your canopy backwards at 50 jumps? Are you sick or something? Or are you just planning on showing the PST guys and gals how good you are by doing a blind man at <100 jumps?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[skyhighkiy 0]

niiiice!!
thanks for the info!

Man,I gotta get out there tomarrow, got so much stuff to try from brian's book and you guys...

I think I"m gonna trim back and get 45's down fairly solid. ...hmm

BE THE BUDDHA!

[hookitt 1]

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Why the #### do you want to fly your canopy backwards at 50 jumps?

Because some Jack ass said it could be done

I used to fly a Falcon 195. I saw it done when I has about 12 jumps. Guess what? I learned right way how to stall, back spin, and such.

My Brother could do the same with 50 jumps. If people want to learn to fly, (Example, girl at our DZ: I talked about the whole process. My brother was there, so I actually pawned her off on him. She imeadiatly went out and explored the canopy flight. She can helicopter that sabre 150 and stall it with complete confidence and control. She now has hundreds of jumps.

[jakee 1,581]

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Maybe I'm daft, I don't know? And I'm sure someone will come along and say I'm full of it. But a wing (or a canopy in this case) can stall at any attitude and at any airspeed. I could be going a gazillion miles an hour straight at the earth and be in a stall. So unless you're in the habit of not completing your flare and pounding in before you need to, you're stalling your canopy on every successful landing you make. Remember pulling down on your toggles is changing the shape of your wing in much the same way as extending flaps on an airplane. It allows the wing (or canopy) to fly at a slower airspeed. At some point, you will lose enough airspeed where the airflow over the wing (or canopy) is disrupted causing it to stall.

OK, correct me if I'm wrong but surely the aim at the end of ANY landing is to put your feet on the ground with the canopy flying at the minimum speed possible while still supporting all your weight. If your canopy is stalling you have lost pretty much all of that lift and it is NOT supporting your weight.
That is what will end up with you pounding in. Landing with a canopy (or indeed any wing in pretty much any kind of aviation) that is still flying is what will give nice soft landings.

The bit about speed is right though, you can stall a wing at any speed, it is dependant on angle of attack.

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You're stalling your canopy on every successful landing you make.

Have you never landed in medium winds, added a bit of toggle and kept your canopy flying over your head (in a non crowded landing area) just for the hell of it? Sure don't seem stalled.




Edit to add:

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If I'm in the middle of a swoop and all of a sudden an obstacle appears in front of me (at a reasonable stopping distance). I need to shut down my canopy by adding more toggle input (not too much to pop me up in the air), changing the shape of my wing and inducing a stall. My touch down will be more abrupt than if I held it.

I dont swoop yet but i think that kinda illustrates my point.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I initially misinterpreted what was being asked when he referred to going backwards. I was thinking more of a blind man maneuver instead of deforming the tail of the canopy (toggles or risers). So in that respect ... my bad.

As long as he's doing this up high, then no problem. Let him knock himself out. Let's just not tell him that this is an essential skill to have for fixed object avoidance jumps. Because the next thing you know he'll be on here telling us about his gainer last night and how he wants to know how to start doing triple gainers with some twists thrown in.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[jdfreefly 1]

I just have this to say, learning high performance landings at the stage you are at, is like learning to do differential calculus without learning basic algebra.

You are trying to build the second story of a house before you've put in the ground floor.

You cannot possibly have mastered the basic canopy survival skills you will need to do this properly. I am all for a fast learning curve when it is apropriate, but with the plan you are on, it is very likely you will be skipping some of the things that can only be learned over an extended period of time.

Canopy flying is not a sprint, it is a marathon. Come up with a plan that will have you doing high speed landings until your knees are too old to handle it, not one that has you doing them until you cause your knees to no longer be able to handle it.

I understand your enthusiasm, but you are not indestructable.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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it is dependant on angle of attack

A stall has nothing to do with angle of attack and everything to do with the flow of air across your wing. Once again, a wing can stall at any air speed and at any attitude.

I'm out of here folks. I've got a hockey game to watch and some te-kill-ya to drink. Keep the flames coming though as I'll check back later.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[jakee 1,581]

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A stall has nothing to do with angle of attack and everything to do with the flow of air across your wing.

I think that you are talking attitude relative to the ground, Angle Of Attack is attitude relative to the airflow and it IS what causes stalls.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[ManBird 0]

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In landing you would never want to go past the point where the canopy begins to stall Right?

Without stalling your canopy up top, you just might do that on the ground. I myself waited until I was about 10' above a tree to discover the stall point on my Fox 245. If you're flying really flat or are deep in brakes for whatever reason, it's good to KNOW your stall point, what the beginning of a stall feels like, and the speed at which you can recover from a stall on your particular canopy.

Plus, it's fun. Put your balls on and do it.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[CanuckInUSA 0]

The disruption of air over the wing is what causes a stall. Yes a steep angle of attack can help induce this disruption. But lift is related to the smooth flow of air across the top of a wing. When this flow of air is disrupted, the wing ceases to develop lift and is in a stall.

People think that their canopy needs to be all deformed to be stalled and in many cases this is true. But that is just a bi-product of a non rigid wing. A wing looses it's lift when the air is no longer smoothly flowing across the top of it. This can happen at any air speed and at any attitude (attitude has nothing to do with the ground and everything to do with the angle of attack in relation to the relative wind).

Aghhh ... do I need to write a "Aerodynamics for Dummies" book.

This is not a slam against you jakee, but why aren't we teaching students aerodynamics when they start skydiving?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

The first jump course is long enough as is with out going into major aero issues. This stuff is up to the coaches to teach. But you get a 100 jump wonder coach who barely understands it himself, and they end up dissemenating the wrong info. What does a coach get paid maybee $5-10 per jump if they are lucky? I get $35 for an aff, so I'm going to go where the money is.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The first jump course is long enough as is with out going into major aero issues. This stuff is up to the coaches to teach.

Hey Spizz. You know I respect you for your talents and your knowledge and I wish we could jump/swoop more together (I guess I need to visit Canon City this fall).

Basic aerodynamcis can be taught in 5 minutes. It's an easy concept ... if explained properly ... and really should be part of the first jump and course not left up to coaches. I was a licensed pilot before I was a skydiver, so I knew all of the concepts before I ever hucked myself out of an airplane. But as I said, it can and should be explained in 5 minutes or less (using visual aides).

I'll PM you when I'm thinking of a road trip down to Canon City and PM me any time you'll be up this way.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

Ya man I know what your saying about the basic stuff, and I try to incorporate a little when I teach, but a lot of the time the student's are thinking more about the upcoming jump than about span, chord, stall characteristics, and laminar airflow... I was a PPL before I even jumped so I know how you feel on that aspect too, but ppl ground school is a lot more intense than a FJC. I would like to come up north and jump more with you guys, but right now I'm going to drink a beer and then go to bed.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I think I"m gonna trim back and get 45's down fairly solid

I was wrong for slaming your earlier about wanting to fly backward ... my bad ... I misunderstood what was being said by you and Hookit.

But do yourself a favor. Instead of worrying about 45s tomorrow, learn the slow flight characteristics of your canopy. I'm not making this up. This is something that I got (in-directly) from Kevin Gibson when I was at your experience level. It may not make sense now. But it will make sense later.

Swooping rocks (and I sure I don't crater). But swooping takes hundred and hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands) of jumps to properly understand and master.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Spizzzarko 0]

But swooping takes hundred and hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands) of jumps to properly understand and master.




Think of it this way. No two jumps are exactly the same. There is alway's going to be something slightly different with the atmosphere each time you jump. Instead of 45's, why don't you try double fronts straight in if your hell bent on going fast. Honestly you would progress a lot faster if you learn accuracy and slow flight first like the Canuck said. I have seen him, he knows his shit. But like treejumps said earlier, we cant change you if you want to go in, but we can try to guide you on the right path. It's up to you to use the tips of the pro's.