CanuckInUSA 0 #51 September 17, 2004 Quote Quote What's worse, having your bride hurt on a less than ideal swoop, or a trip to the ER? A bad swoop can hurt your bride? Does she know this? - Jim My bad ... and besides you're supposed to be able to read my mind, not what I wrote. As far as what Rhino is saying concerning someone learning their canopy with a short recover arc as opposed to someone like SkymonkeyOne or Scott Miller swooping the shit out of a big boat of a canopy. I only tend to agree with him when he's talking about 270s. But 45s, 90s and yes even 180s should not be an issue. It all boils down to how much the canopy pilot has played with the canopy up high and how well they know their canopy. I think most of us are guilty of downsizing or going to an elliptical canopy before we really should have. But once we start realizing what it takes to become a good canopy pilot (hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of jumps on each canopy learning their performance characteristics up high before we bring it down close to the ground, the less of an issue recover arcs should be). Every time I think of this, all I need to do is watch that video of Scott Miller doing a 270 on a Navigator 220. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raymod2 1 #52 September 17, 2004 Quote Quote Dude, I can swoop the piss out of a Spectre at .9. There is no reason whatsoever that this person cannot do HP turns under that canopy. It's not the canopy; it's the progression. You can because you are good and experienced.. A not so experienced person, learning to swoop can get killed with that short of a recovery arc.. Rhino, how long are you going to continue repeating this misinformation? Plenty of swoopers learned to swoop on more docile canopies with short natural recovery arcs. I learned to swoop on a Sabre 150 and I didn't put it away until I had more jumps than you do now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #53 September 17, 2004 Quote You can because you are good and experienced.. A not so experienced person, learning to swoop can get killed with that short of a recovery arc.. Hell I can swoop the piss out of one too but that doesn't make it a good idea for someone that needs the advantages that a longer recovery arc gives them.. Wouldn't you agree? Nope. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #54 September 17, 2004 I am all about a long recovery arc, but for someone just starting out, I believe a bigger canopy (=/<1.1:1) with a shorter recovery arc is the trick ticket. After that first step, I believe one should downsize/planform change conservatively, after accomplishing all the learning objectives on each wing. This progression should incorporate wings that gradually increase the recovery arc. That is, however, just my opinion. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #55 September 17, 2004 No shit. Here's how it goes. The recovery arc is shorter in altitude loss, but the difference in time is marginal! Let's say you dive for 5 seconds. Do you know what it means to lose 600' instead of 300'? It means you are going TWICE as fast! Get a clue! A canopy with a longer recovery arc builds more speed! The time between when you get ground rush and say "oh shit" to the time you meet the ground is MUCH SHORTER on a canopy that has a longer recovery arc. When you get that low turn ground rush at 50' (regardless of when you started the turn), at 35MPH, you have one full second to stab it out. At 70 MPH, you have half a second to stop twice the momentum. If you haven't developed that sort of reaction or the judgement to avoid that situation in the first place, you will break yourself. This concept of a longer recovery arc being safer is total bullshit and is definitely coming from those who haven't flown something that dives long and hard. I've seen people follow this advice and wreck themselves because of it. STFU!"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #56 September 17, 2004 I could be wrong, but I think you told the wrong person the STFU? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgr 0 #57 September 17, 2004 Rhino may have a point regarding the potential safety benefits of a longer recovery arc, but these benefits can become deadly when low-time swoopers get in over their heads. Consistently landing a Spectre at .9 – which SuperKat already flies – is a skill that can be transferred to other canopies. Taking a safe, disciplined approach is the only way to prepare yourself for other, higher-performance canopies. SuperKat, keep up the good work, fly safe and enjoy your canopy. There is SO much that you can do now and you’re on the right track! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #58 September 17, 2004 Quote I could be wrong, but I think you told the wrong person the STFU? It's not directed at RayMod2, of course."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #59 September 17, 2004 Quote Rhino, how long are you going to continue repeating this misinformation? Misinformation? I disagree.. Bigger, lesser loaded canopy with a short recovery arc means less to NO room for error.. Canopy at 1.5ish,,, Can be hooked from twice as high, the canopy has twice the performance, the pilot has much more time to take an out.. Do a 180 hook on a canopy at .95 from 250 feet ish, judge it too low and you break 2 legs.. Your under a boat that doesn't pull around the corner well at all.. Get on a xf2 at 1.6 and the opposite it true.. Come in from 500 feet.. On a 180 hook if ANYTHING is wrong just let off the fronts.. The canopy turns the corner fast enough and responds well enough to correct for ones error in judgement much better than a spectre at .95. I am sorry. Swooping ANYTHING at .95 is asking for it.. It's foolish and an inecessary risk due to the short recovery arc and lack of performance. If someone wants to SERIOUSLY learn to swoop I believe 1.4-1.6 is the best place to start on an elliptical canopy "providing they are ready for that loading".. The only real reason I would tell someone at .95 to use front risers is to get out f the air quickly on high wind days to keep from backing up into trouble.. That is what fronts are for at .95.. Not hook turning.. This is NOT misinformation.. These are facts as I was taught and what I believe through experience.. Of my 600 some odd jumps, 370+ are on a crossfire2 loaded at 1.9+.. No injuries, no close calls, long recovery arc and a great performing canopy.. All standups.. Of my 600 some odd jumps at least 400 have been hop-n-pops from altitude.. I have quiet a bit of canopy time under my belt as it is what I work on diligently.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgr 0 #60 September 17, 2004 Rhino, what was your canopy progression? That word – progression – is very important for the long-term health of many jumpers. You may be one of the few exceptions who have survived rapid downsizing to higher wing-loadings on higher-performance canopies. I hope your success continues. Some of what you have said is very important to consider -- especially about doing a 180 hook. No one here wants SuperKat to try 180’s – on any canopy. The main issue is the unique experience of the pilot and their progression. You stated that “If someone wants to SERIOUSLY learn to swoop I believe 1.4-1.6 is the best place to start on an elliptical canopy ‘providing they are ready for that loading’”. Few people with 215 jumps are ready for an elliptical loaded at 1.4-1.6 and even fewer of us would ever recommend such a progression. SuperKat is taking a safe, disciplined approach by working on the double-fronts and practicing up high. SuperKat is also being safe by learning as much as possible under a good wing that is appropriate for their level of experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #61 September 17, 2004 Agreed. I will reiterate what I said long, long ago: You can learn HP landings on anything over your head. A three second turn is a three second turn is a three second turn, no matter how high or low you initiate it. Your final turn altitude is determined by the altitude lost over whatever period of time it takes for you to complete X amount of rotation with the altitude needed for the canopy to complete it's natural recovery arc. The amount of time it takes to complete the turn remains the same. Arbitrarilly throwing turns without knowing nearly precisely how much altitude you will lose and how long it should have taken is dangerous and amateurish. Those of us who began doing HP turns when the smallest canopy available was a 120....period....know good and well that the shorter recovery arc offered by those canopies didn't make for any more injuries than todays jumpers experience under sub 100 mains. The difference is that nobody back then in their right mind was stupid enough to start throwing radical hook turns with only 200 jumps. Today, it's simply vogue to sport tiny shit on your back and throw turns LONG before you are ready for it. I see very few instances these days of people truly wringing out their canopies. They would rather get bare-minimum experience on the smallest "first" canopy that someone will sell them, then hastilly downsize in hopes of getting "better" landings. Yes, there are some people out there who progress very quickly while maintaining a good safety record (Rhino is one....I have met him and seen his landings), but he is not the norm. He got coaching very early on and stuck with "training" hop and pops for quite a long time in his efforts to get his canopy dialed. The bottom line here is that you can swoop anything you like. No, you are not going to kick my ass (or anyone else on tour) under your Spectre, Safire, or whatever, but who gives a shit. There is a big difference in what we do through courses and what is "fun" on the DZ. Be safe, get training when it's available, and then be satisfied in the knowledge that it's all good so long as "it feels good and is stylie." Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #62 September 17, 2004 Quote what was your canopy progression? My progression was very agressive. Of the jumps I have 3/4 of them are hop-n-pops from altitude.. I have a ton of canopy time.. It is the main thing I enjoy about skydiving.. Roughly -Student canopies from 175-210 sq ft 50 jumps -Triathlon150 150+ jumps 1.25 loading "Here I learned everything I could about slow speed flight, flat turns, accuracy" Anyone can fly fast but slow speed flight capability is what will save your life.. I made ONE swoop under this canopy and posted that video a while back.. I bounced, didn't leave myself an out and just did a stupid thing.. Still landed on my feet but that isn't the point.. Here I began to REALLY study and work on canopy flight. -Diablo110 50+ jumps loaded at 1.7 "started swooping here" -Crossfire103 25+ jumps 1.8 -Xaos21-98 5+ jumps "didn't like" 1.9ish Crossfire2-97 350+ jumps at 1.95 A few canopies in between.. I have jumped alot of canopies but settled into the crossfire2 at the loading I am at. I was coached "initially" by Charlie Mullins and "finally" by Derek "hooksnswoop".. If you are wondering about my ability ask him.. I have all standup landings.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #63 September 17, 2004 Quote SuperKat is taking a safe, disciplined approach by working on the double-fronts and practicing up high. SuperKat is also being safe by learning as much as possible under a good wing that is appropriate for their level of experience. By the way.. I TOTALLY agree.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #64 September 17, 2004 Quote I have all standup landings.. So do I ... except when I don't. Just thought your comment was funny. Sounds like you have 40 jumps and want to start hookturns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #65 September 17, 2004 This is the best post about swooping, I've read in a long time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #66 September 17, 2004 Quote So do I ... except when I don't. Just thought your comment was funny. Sounds like you have 40 jumps and want to start hookturns. I hear you.. lol. I just feel it is important for someone to be able to properly land what they have before they progress to a small canopy.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #67 September 18, 2004 Quote SuperKat, keep up the good work, fly safe and enjoy your canopy. There is SO much that you can do now and you’re on the right track! Quote Few people with 215 jumps are ready for an elliptical loaded at 1.4-1.6 and even fewer of us would ever recommend such a progression. SuperKat is taking a safe, disciplined approach by working on the double-fronts and practicing up high. SuperKat is also being safe by learning as much as possible under a good wing that is appropriate for their level of experience. Thanks Skymonkey, ManBird and Chrisgr. I really don't want to downsize yet until I get 1,000 jumps out of this canopy. I have yet to discover what I can milk out of this bad boy. For now my double fronts straight in approach are doing very well. However, now my accuracy is out the window. Kinda like learning how to chew gum and walk. I am dialing it down slowly. I start my approach and slowly let up the toggles by 50feet or so. And on no wind days, I haul ass man. I grass skate across the ground for about 15 feet or so. Nice little 5 second rush. Thank you all for the vote of confidence in executing this basic high speed landing. I'm still a tad bit scared about letting up the fronts lower than 50 feet but eventually I will get there. Quote The bottom line here is that you can swoop anything you like. No, you are not going to kick my ass (or anyone else on tour) under your Spectre, Safire, or whatever, but who gives a shit.I smell a challenge here folks. Give me 2 years and let's play for beer or we can play the loser has to do an RW skydive wearing a pink G-String only. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #68 September 19, 2004 Quote I start my approach and slowly let up the toggles by 50feet or so. And on no wind days, I haul ass man. All in all this has been a good thread. I'm no big, bad, macho pro swooper by any means, but I do like to have fun. I'm just hoping what I highlighted (and you typed) above was a typo. Please? Tell me you're not toggle hooking....please.....It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #69 September 19, 2004 Quote Tell me you're not toggle hooking....please..... I always admired your attention to detail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #70 September 19, 2004 Quote Tell me you're not toggle hooking....please.....Come one now after all this talk about slowly progressing and you think I'm toggle hooking? I'm a more sensible person than that. I stayed alive in this sport 200 jumps later not by luck my friend. I'm a very careful and anal person. Thanks for the concern though. I'm only doing double fronts straight in. When I can dial it in lower, to get a nice swoop out of it, probably 200-300 more jumps then, I can start doing other maneuvers. And that will be another post my friend. Blue Skies and thanks all! What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #71 September 19, 2004 The problem here, Kat, is you didn't say no. I have seen alot of people use toggles to set up for double fronts (base to final on toggles a bit high, then dbl fronts to dive a bit). I've also seen them bif in, hard. If you're using only risers, GREAT! Just please write that you let up on the risers, not the toggles. No matter what you use the toggles for, letting up on them at a low altitude is bad juju. I'm assuming from your post that you use your risers to turn to final too, but we all know what that word means when you break it down.... So, care to answer the question? Oh, and Rob? My attention to detail means I didn't see you at the WFFC this year.....It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #72 September 19, 2004 Quote Oh, and Rob? My attention to detail means I didn't see you at the WFFC this year..... Sorry bro... I'll try and make it next year.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #73 September 19, 2004 Quote So, care to answer the question? I jump with Nico and can assure you and everyone else that he is not toggle hooking. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #74 September 20, 2004 Quote The problem here, Kat, is you didn't say no.No, there I've said it. Lemme splain' lucy. d/w leg to base leg to final leg I use my toggles. Double fronts approach@130-100 feet: toggles all the way up, toggles still in hand, two fingers in each front riser dive loops - holding both down for a few secs, 50-60 feet, slowly letting up on the front risers. 15-20, two stage flare with toggles. I hope this is clear enough. Blue Skies! What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #75 September 20, 2004 Quote I jump with Nico and can assure you and everyone else that he is not toggle hooking. Thanks Bro. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
