diving a sabre

[yoink 321]

First a little background... I'm jumping a Sabre 135 @1.14:1

Whilst I really like the canopy, maintaining a dive with it is a biotch unless I'm doing continuous spirals on a front riser - not really what I'm after.

A friend and swooper (jumps a Katana 97) took mine up for a play and put in a 360 for landing... after the 360 he was still way too high but on landing said that he initiated the dive "buttock-clentchingly low"

I guess what I'm asking is "is there any way to extend the recovery arc of my canopy or is this just normal with Sabres?
I'd prefer a slightly longer recovery arc for obvious reasons - having to initiate low turns to learn to surf seems like a really bad idea....

Ta

Will

[Kbone 0]

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I'd prefer a slightly longer recovery arc for obvious reasons

A longer recovery arc will produce more speed to create a longer swoop. If you are having trouble judging the recovery arc on your Saber, why would you want a canopy with a recovery arc that is even more tricky to judge correctly?

[yoink 321]

because when I do start swooping, I don't want to have a low sight picture ingrained. Imagine transitioning to a canopy that requires initiating a turn at 400 ft and you're used to starting at 150ft (arbitrary numbers); you wouldn't start the turn high enough and you'd dig in...
This is something I've had explained to me by several experienced and respected swoopers.

I'd prefer something that gives me a little more margin for error...

I'm not having difficulty judging the recovery. I'd just like it to be longer.

[gus 1]

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Imagine transitioning to a canopy that requires initiating a turn at 400 ft and you're used to starting at 150ft (arbitrary numbers); you wouldn't start the turn high enough and you'd dig in...

I see what you're saying but......if you blindly hooked at 150 ft on a new canopy just because that's what you're used to then maybe you shouldn't be swooping. Skills learnt on canopy A do not become wasted on canopy B just because the flight characteristics are different.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

If you carve your turns as opposed to "banging" them, you will increase the initiation altitude quite a bit. Make no mistake, a 135 is not a "big" parachute by any means, regardless of the fact that many of us now jump sub-100's regularly. You can swoop a 135 a very long way with the right input. The fact that you have to change your initiation height with different parachutes and planforms is elementary. Each and every parachute you jump will handle and dive differently, I can promise you that. The ability to fly what is over your head at any certain moment is what makes a good canopy pilot.

On a regular basis I switch between three, sometimes four different mains: Velo 79, Sabre2 97, Firebolt 350 tandem, StarTrac I. All require very different flying styles in order to get them to do what you want them to do. Doing practice turns and flares at altitude and on pre-set headings gets your brain back in tune with your canopy. Sight picture and setup altitude are different with every canopy and at every dropzone at every altitude. Learning and practicing the basic principles of standard and HP turns is fundamental. You should not have any problem adjusting to another canopy should you use those same principles to dial in any new canopy you might buy.

Chuck

[vt1977 0]

Hey Yoink,

I see you’re based in the UK. Have you been to one of Chris Lynch’s excellent Wingtips seminars? If you are serious about wanting to learn more about what your canopy can do that would be a very, very wise first step. Also, have you read Chris’ article from the June 2004 Skydive Mag?

Stay safe,

Vicki

[Jumpmunki 0]

was just gonna suggest that !

i went thru a phase of wanting to swoop and trying to learn myself and i just had a moment of ooooooooooo camera .. and boink ... no snaps but a badly fractured ego !

i'm glad it happened to be honest

baby steps .. and lots of help really lower the risks ..

but your already a swooper so ignore all this

[ManBird 0]

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I'd prefer a slightly longer recovery arc for obvious reasons - having to initiate low turns to learn to surf seems like a really bad idea....

It's not a bad idea at all. The turn is lower, but the speed is slower. If you realize you need to dig out when you're 20' up, would you rather be going 35mph or 70mph?

That aside, the answer to your question is both no and yes. No, the recovery arc of the Sabre cannot be extended. Yes, you can extend your recovery arc.

I flew a Sabre 120 loaded at 1.4 for about 400 jumps. Granted, the wingloading is higher, but you can most definitely swoop this canopy. On several occassions, I went the entire length of our 200' pond (or is it 240'?). But you do have to start the turn low compared to modern canopies. It's trimmed very flat, which contributes to its quick recovery arc. I just did 180s, and generally started them at around 300' - 350'.

If you really want to start getting better swoops out of whatever is over your head... GET COACHING! Even the Cyber Coaching program works really well (I've done it). Now... my personal advice to be taken with a grain of salt:





At <150 jumps, just stick with 90s and straight-in landings for awhile. Practice your swoops up top over and over and over again before bringing them down to the ground. It takes patience and money, but it's better than having a femur sticking out of your ass.

Go up and pull high (on a Sabre, try not to take a delay -- opening at terminal at 10K will probably hurt). Up top, do your front riser turn. Don't throw the turn too hard -- just enough to get the canopy to dive. You want to look for four things:

1. Airflow separation. Look up at the canopy. If it changes shape significantly during the front riser turn, you're turning too hard and too fast. If it bucks at all, your lower brake lines are probably too short. Have a rigger lengthen them -- it takes five minutes and usually costs nothing.

2. Time. Count up how many seconds you can hold the dive in a smooth carve. For this example, let's say it's five seconds.

3. Degree of turn. Once you know the number of seconds, start paying attention to degree of your turn. If after x number of seconds of doing a slow carve, you've done a 180. Your goal should be to perform a 180° turn over five seconds.

4. Altitude loss. Pay attention to altitude loss (this is still at higher altitudes). Watch your altimeter through your turn (having a Neptune in "canopy mode" helps a LOT). Try to start at a "landmark" altitude, like 5,000'. Once you've planed out and things have gotten quiet, note your altitude. If you're at 4,550', then you now know to start a 180° turn from 450' that should last for about five seconds.



It should take about a dozen high pulls right in a row before you really start to know the numbers for the above items. And chances are that whatever figure you come up with in #4 will be too high. This is OK. It's better than too low. After you practiced up top (high pulls and normal skydives) a LOT (hundreds of jumps) and you start landing these turns, you'll develop the ability to eyeball your altitude better. Also note that the altitude loss can change dramatically at different elevations and atmospheric conditions.

You can do shortened versions of these drill dives after a normal freefall -- you just might want to pull a little higher. But it's important to do high pulls and hop and pops, as well. Over half of my jumps on my new Katana 97 are high pulls, and the payoff is big in terms of both safety and performance.

My 2¢.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[DrewEckhardt 0]

You can start your turn higher by using a carving turn with a wider radius the idea being to maintain roll angle which gets you reasonable riser pressure and an increasing decent rate until you need to level out.

Opposite front riser can be applied to slow the turn rate.

[freakydiver 0]

I initiate my 180s under my Sabre 135 loaded at 1.7 at approx 350 feet - that is not low.

Oh yah - and get coaching.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[BMFin 0]

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I initiate my 180s under my Sabre 135 loaded at 1.7 at approx 350 feet - that is not low.

Dont you think 1.7 dives a little faster than 1.14 ??

[yoink 321]

Thanks all
Just to reassure you all that I'm not hellbent on bending myself, yes I've attended canopy coaching seminars, yes I've had and am having experienced swoopers look at and video my landings as often as I can, and no, I'm not doing any more than 90s at the moment.

thanks for all your advice - I'll have a look at the Cyber Coaching programme. I've not looked at that before.

Will

[freakydiver 0]

I know it dives faster. I still don't consider 350 feet low though.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[ManBird 0]

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I know it dives faster. I still don't consider 350 feet low though.

I agree. It takes about as much time to do a 180° turn from 350' on a Sabre as it does from 650' on a Katana. Which gives you an idea of why a canopy with a longer recovery arc is *not* necessarily safer.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[Fast 0]

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I know it dives faster. I still don't consider 350 feet low though.

I agree. It takes about as much time to do a 180° turn from 350' on a Sabre as it does from 650' on a Katana. Which gives you an idea of why a canopy with a longer recovery arc is *not* necessarily safer.

Less margin for error even though your using more distance. I guess that point doesn't really stick out or make sense intuitivly for a lot of people.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka