Sabre vs. Stilleto

[Superfletch 1]

I have a Stilleto 150 that until recently I thought was a fantastic canopy. I don't have a lot of experience on other size or types of canopies. I got my Stilleto at about 150 jumps. I now have 385 jumps. I have been playing with swooping and have been having good and bad luck with it. Anyhow, getting back to the point, recently a friend of mine let me borrow his Sabre 150 for my second rig. I had never flown one before so I thought it would be fun to play with. What I am finding much to the surprise of everyone I know is that this particular Sabre has lighter riser preasure than my Stilleto and I am getting longer swoops with much more lift at the end of the swoop than I do with my Stilleto. Does this sound right? I would have expected that the Stilleto should out perform the Sabre hands down. My Stilleto has much snappier turns than the Sabre does and from the momemt I let go of my pilot chute until I start to enter my landing pattern I prefer my Stilleto hands down. However, once I start my downwind I'm finding lately that I wish I was flying the Sabre. In my opinion it hooks better and flares better at the end of the surf than my Stilleto. Is this a flook? Maybe perhaps my Stilleto is ragged out and just not performing the way it truly should. Any thoughts would be welcomed. I'm not sure how many jumps either canopy has on it or the line sets.

Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher
D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I
Videographer/Photographer

[tattoojeff 0]

it sounds more like your just more comfortable under the saber. im not sure if your really getting longer swoops because ive never seen you, but its hard to believe. you dont have alot of performance landings so maybe its just your perception.
however we all thought the world was flat a few hundred years ago so anything is possible.
shred what you like my freind.

[raymod2 1]

I believe it. I've only got 35 jumps under a Stiletto but I wasn't impressed with how it swooped. It wants to turn so fast that I found it difficult to manage my turn rate during my final approach. I frequently found that I was coming around too fast and if I tried to slow down the turn the riser pressure would become unmanageable. I also got the impression that it loses lift quickly towards the end of the swoop and requires you to put your feet down too early. Then again, maybe I just wasn't flying it right. I learned to swoop on a Sabre.

[D22369 0]

an eliptical wing "should" outperform a non-elip,

to me it sounds like you are just more in tune with the characteristics of the sabre than you are the stilleto, or else the lines on the stilleto are really out of trim. next jump look up and check to see if you have a nice bow in the brake lines, if they are too short, you will come out of the dive faster and the surf will be shorter.

about 5 years ago I bought a used stilletto with 1500 jumps on the lineset and then put 500 more on it before changing the lines, once the new lines were on, it handled completely different. took a bit of getting used to, but it did surf better after the new lines were installed, and its not very expensive.

Roy

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[bogwarrior 0]

The Stilletto should outperform the Sabre in the right hands. I spent a good deal of time getting the ' turn rate ' right on the Stilletto and appreciate what you are saying about it wanting to turn on the spot! I focussed on the ' angle of dive ' and hence the time in the dive for a given turn and eventually found a balance I was happy with.



Quite commonly people can change canopy to get better performance without ' ragging the canopy they have ' . To quote Pete Allum , you will learn more on your second 500 about flying a given canopy than on your first 500

Open high and practice using the harness in combination with the front riser. You might also find that pulling down more on the direction of turn and a little on the other side will help slow the turn rate. Thats my two cents worth after 400 jumps on a STil 107 in the last two months.

best wishes
David

[freeflydrew 0]

I found it very hard to effdectively Swoop a stiletto until I was under the 120 and the 107... Before that I flew the 135, and found, correct me if I'm wrong, that the natural recovery arc of the 135 was far too quick (short) to hook turn from a high altitude and the riser pressure build up was way too strong. Once I was under the 120, the pressure became lighter, and the starting altitude higher, and once under the 107, the starting height is much higher, and the riser pressure is much much lighter...
I say be mello and patient, the 150's recovery arc is way short and will force you to hook lower than ideal if you want to have a nice swoop... not the most ideal learning condition. But at 385 jumps, maybe swooping and hook turns aren't the best move right now... If you are going to learn to swoop and hook turn and stuff, please try to learn the most important part first: Know when to bail on a hook turn because you are too low...

PD has a great PDF file on their website comparing the flight characteristics of the Sabre and the Stiletto. Here

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Something's off (canopy or technique) if you're getting more distance and flare out of the sabre.

Stilettos build more speed in a dive and have a lower stall speed at the end of your swoop. While they don't stay in a dive after a hard turn as much as more modern canopies, I think you get a little more than a square like a sabre or monarch. You really want to make a carving approach. Recovery when you get off the front risers is fairly immediate - on my 120 I can level out by getting off the front risers or just taking the slack out of the brake lines (toggles at ear height).

As the line set aged (I put 600 jumps on new lines) on my 120 the openings got a bit squirly towards the end and I had to replace the brake lines twice due to shrinkage although it didn't swoop poorly. Stall speed probably increased some too. I should have replaced the lines after 500 jumps - maybe you have a trim problem.

You might get the trim specs (Kola can send them, or you may find them on the web site) and check that.

[fundgh 0]

Would it not be better to have a canopy with a longer recovery arc to learn swooping? With such short recovery arc, it seems to me that you would have to push your initial turn altitude dangerously low. Why do so many people jump the Stilleto? What makes it such a good canopy, and is it really an appropriate canopy to follow the Sabre?

...FUN FOR ALL!

[ManBird 0]

IMO, the altitude at which to initiate a turn for a canopy with a shorter recovery arc is easier to judge. It also builds less speed, which, to me, is the real safety benefit. Longer recovery arc means more speed which means you just hit the ground harder when you misjudge and react too slowly.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[bogwarrior 0]

perhaps there are better canopies out there . The original question related to Stil. V Sabre.

Granted the recovery arc is smaller on a Stil , and this puts the Stil in the mid performance class ( in my eyes ) . This does mean turning lower than on this canopy ( especially with a conservative wing loading ) than one might expect on higher performance / wing loading.


Superfletch what i would suggest is the experimenting high at first. Open high and practice differing type of turns to see what makes the canopy dive for you. Sit into the turn ( dont pull your weight out of the harness with your riser . Practice using varying amounts of each riser . ). All the time noting altitude loss on using your altimiter. Note your results up high and when you are confident of what height you need to turn bring it close to the ground. As another poster mentioned ,, know when to save your ass on brakes.

Another objective on the Stil. is to find its " powerband " .

To sum the Stil is a better canopy for swooping , and the techniques you learn on this canopy will serve you well on your next canopy.


I have done about 40 jumps on a Sabre2 and my impression of it was that it naturally dove at the ground a bit more anyway ( might account for the lighter riser pressure ) , but did not go the distance.

Happy piloting.

David

[freeflydrew 0]

Quote

Would it not be better to have a canopy with a longer recovery arc to learn swooping? With such short recovery arc, it seems to me that you would have to push your initial turn altitude dangerously low. Why do so many people jump the Stilleto? What makes it such a good canopy, and is it really an appropriate canopy to follow the Sabre?

That's exactly what i was saying about the larger size stilletos... so many people jump the stilleto because it has incredibly ideal flight characteristics, unbelievable openings and, for some time, was the highest performance canopy available... It's definitely an appropriate canopy to follow a sabre, but only for the right type of canopy pilot, with the right amount of experience.

From the PD Website:
"Since its release, the Stiletto has become the most sought after high performance "elliptical" nine cell canopy in the world...

Whether it's the soft openings, responsiveness, extremely fast rate of turn, flat glide, or incredible landing capabilities, the Stiletto is the canopy of choice for those pilots who have taken the time (and jumps) to hone their piloting skill.

The Stiletto has been the canopy flown by more national and world champions than any other canopy in the world. From formation skydiving to free flying, Blade Running™ to skysurfing the Stiletto has become the canopy of choice for pilots who desire a canopy that performs as well after opening as they perform in free fall. The Stiletto is that canopy. If you are ready for the transition from what you currently fly, to the canopy regarded as the premiere high performance elliptical in the world...the Stiletto is ready for you."
PD Stilleto Page

[bogwarrior 0]

" Would it not be better to have a canopy with a longer recovery arc to learn swooping? With such short recovery arc, it seems to me that you would have to push your initial turn altitude dangerously low. "

No is my immediate reaction. It is better to learn the fundamentals of swooping on a canopy that allows you get your ass out of jail that bit quicker. Granted you have to turn a little lower with the stil, but this is offset by a quick recovery in camparison to other canopies. For example a crossfire 2 , or X braced canopy will spend a period of time in the recovery phase where no amount of brakes will save your ass. Learn with the principles with the conservative canopy. Turn higher , put more speed in the dive and youll far outrun a guy doing a nosedive at 100ft! Also a conservative wing loading is the place to practice with the rear risers which will generally speaking have a longer range and hence lower danger of stall. There is so much to do on a Stilletto before moving on to a hotter canopy.

[2dogs 0]

I rarely ever post here, but you have struck a chord. I'm much happier with my Sabre 150 than my Stilletto 135. I also jump a Velocity 96 that opens, flies, and lands better than the Stilletto. Overrated canopy in my book.

I got out from under the Sabre cause of the six-foot snivels it was prone to giveya.

Greg Sims
D11311
Shreveport, LA

To love the game beyond the prize

[namdrib 0]

I, not unlike Greg, rarely post here, but, like Greg, this has struck a cord with me as well. More than likely due to 80% of my jumps being on a Sabre or Stiletto.
First of all, everything that has been pointed out here is very informative. The Sabre does have a much longer recovery arch, which means you really have to dig out of a misjudgement. But I do, however, get a much better swoop out of my Stiletto. Of course, it is hard to judge just based on which canopy is better than the other in certain scererio's without looking at wingloading. I am at 2:1 on my Stiletto 97 and can build up more speed on a Sabre 107 than the Stiletto, BUT... And this is a big one, as someone stated earlier in the thread, you can learn more in your last 500 than your first.
Upon talking to Brian Germain about executing a proper, faster hook, he stated that it is all in the initial turn. That once you begin your whip into the turn, that you should be diving into the turn. (*Wow, did that seem confusing to anyone else? ) I have since learned how to fly a canopy better. I have learned proper techniques to improve the swoop.
I will say that I jumped a Sabre 97 a while ago and did not get the overall performance that I do with the Stiletto. I have great lift at the very end of my swoop and hardly ever have to run it out. Of course, I have gotten into a bad habit of carving 180 degrees on just about every landing, but hey, habits are hard to break. (*Until you get your freakin' ass chewed out by someone looking out for your well being! (***Thanks by the way if you are reading this. )
I would also like to add, just like someone else, that my Stiletto has approx. 1100 jumps on it, and when I got it back from a re-line, it was like a totally different canopy. Might want to consider having that done on yours.
I really don't think that there is a true "legitimate" answer to this, everyone has their own opinion. Some people are partial to Sabres while others, like myself, will not jump anything but a Stiletto. But I think as a whole on here, everyone seems to agree that the Stiletto out performs the Sabre. I have no problems with mine, whether it be swooping, opening, flying, or even using it with a Wingsuit. But, another thing to think about is, I used to SWEAR by a Sabre until I jumped something different!
Go with whatever you are comfortable with, with whatever is treating you right at this present moment!
Phew, did I rattle on or what? Sorry!!!!

Unknowing attempting to take out all 4 wheeled vehicles remotely close to the landing area!