I'm angry as hell.

[diablopilot 2]

When will it stop? When will you mornonic know it all fresh off student status jumpers start listening to people who have made the mistakes you will, who have seen people go to the hospital time after time, who have seen people never make another jump again?!

I have a friend in emergency surgery right now who had way too few jumps to be jumping the canopy he was. It's uncertain if he'll walk again.

You have no business deciding you're ahead of the game. You're not as good as you think.

You may have raw talent, but when the shit hits the fan and you're deep in the corner, experience is what lets you limp away with bruises and scrapes, rather than being carried out. Experience is what makes you humble enough to not put yourself in over your head. 10 jumps doing the exact same thing 10 times in a row gives you a glimmer of what to expect, 100 might give you the experience to do it right every time. Now explain to me how in 300 or less jumps you have the ability to do anything remotely close to surviving a hook turn.

To my friend: Brother, you know how I felt, you know I didn't like the idea of you jumping what you were, you know I wouldn't let you jump mine. I am mad at you, and I hurt thinking about your future now.

I love you and wish for the best. Please be ok, please recover, please come back and play with us.

BSBD,
-jp-p

[Courteney 0]

Hey man,
Sorry to hear bout your friend, hope he'll be ok.
It's my experience that NO ONE is as good as they think!!!

Safe swoops.
Courteney.

...drags me down like some sweet gravity!!!

[tonyhays 86]

Sorry to hear about your friend. Are the details posted in the Incidents forum? Or do you mind sharing them here?

edited to fix my okie grammer

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[marks 0]

the one thing that one of my favorite instructors tought me that i kinda still use now is sometimes you have to let peaple make there own mistakes. it sucks but that is the way it is, alot of peaple just arent going to listen, but they will listen better if they value your input because your not always harping on them about dont do this , dont do that. rather explain how to do it and what the consequences might be.

im sure you already know this, and sometimes it is hard to follow.

i hope the best for your freind, and im sure he has learned from this experiance. and will value your input much more next time.

[Rdutch 0]

If I had $1 for everyone that I know that has been asked to slow down (including myself and my Titanium reminder) I would have a lot more jumps paid for. Unfortunately the typical skydiver has a lot of testosterone and a strong desire to do today what takes a long time to learn.
It took me almost killing myself to learn respect for the ground, and I use that experience to try and help people not to do what I did. This goes for Swooping, Video ect. Just because you can do it one time or 5 times doesnt mean you can do it all the time. Experience is the only thing that can save your ass, even the best swoopers in the world end up in the corner now and then, but its the thousands of jumps they have that helps them handle it.

Unfortunately for you and me, there isn't an answer or solution. All we can do is talk to the people we see and hope they will listen, but right now stupid people will make stupid decisions and there isn't much we can do about it.

You have the right idea though, all we can do is talk to people and offer advice. I have a good friend that hooked it in and was lucky enough to walk away without a scratch. He learned a good lesson and is becoming a great canopy pilot because of it. He was one of the people that we all thought would never do that, good head on his shoulder and didnt let testosterone make his decisons for him. But that one day he decided to swoop the pond and had little experience.

Just like you, I am sick of seeing people that I care about carried off the dz in a helecopter or ambulance. But I have no idea on a solution to this. Any ideas?

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[dterrick 0]

...and after 200 jumps as a 'mature' (read 30-something) jumper I can relate.

A few weeks ago I finshed my Coach 1 course. One of my fellow candidates didn't because of an injury due to a low hook turn. Actually, it wasn't the bouncing skidding tunblefuq that I witnessed following him in on final that did it - it was the fact that he jumped again and hit turbulence that crashed him in on his already sore ankle!! He got a stern warning about the low hook (dumbass!!) from the DZO and DZSO, but he chose to jump again. Early 20's and bulletproof, right? I bet I'd have done the same thing 15 years ago.

Sure, I have the ground-bound G force addiction that calls me to a Stiletto and beyond (a dozen years of 1.2G sports car racing), but I still need to be able to land it under the worst of conditions. My DZO has told me I have the maturity AND the skill to pull off the 1.2:1 elliptical loading without problem. Somehow though, stories like yours ring in my mind I temper my enthusiasm for a faster ride. NObody tells me I can't handle any 170 elliptical (I've done many demos under several different versions, some under under less than ideal conditions) but even the DZO questions my occasional desire to fly a 150 "square-ish" on a windy day... and so do I. At some level deep inside my warped little mind I understand that it is the EXCEPTION to the norm that is what gets us in trouble, not the norm. I made an accuracy-style off-DZ landing at Hollister last summer under a Spectre 170 that was soooo uneventful that it was almost boring ... despite the surrounding peril. A year later, I look at this as a Very Valuable lesson in the benefit of "being square....ish"

I feel for your friend as much as for you. I've not seen a fatal yet (may I continue t be so lucky)but I've now seen 3 fellow skydivers lose airtime due to low turn injuries in 3 years. If I could only convince myself that I would never "hit turbulence" and over-correct into a femuring chow while learning my 'hypothetically new' elliptical I'd be under one tomorrow. In fact I'd been shopping for either that or a suitably modern7 cell ZP that I could use as a demo/accuracy rig for many years to come. Guess which way I'm leaning? Yes, your words touched at least one of us...

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Is the details posted in the Incidents forum? Or do you mind sharing them here?

In due time, I need to make sure the facts are straight.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[yoink 321]

There's part of an interview with Heath Richardson I think on the PD DVD that struck home while I was watching it last night...

Paraphrased, it was "high speed canopy flight isn't a normal thing - it takes lots and lots of practice. there's no such thing as a natural'...

good advice.


Sorry about your friend JP - hope he recovers soon.

[ramon 0]

It is becoming quite a problem. Even at a DZ filled with experienced canopy guidance like Perris.

Skydiving is turning in to 2 different sports really quickly. Sort of like an airport where you can learn to fly a stunt plane with only 40 hours in a cessna and no regulations or license requirements to keep you out of the stunt plane.

Sorry about your buddy.

ramon

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[avgjoe 0]

don't let it get you done. Keep the faith I recognize the fact that you feel like a broken record saying the same thing over and over to the next ???jump wonder that thinks they are the one that the averages don't apply to. Maybe one will hear the message. If no one says anything that is one way to insure that no one hears the message
avgjoe
hookit for safety

[Deuce 1]

OK. I need to understand this:

Why was he allowed to board the plane?

Did anybody say "Hey, Manifestor, you know that knucklehead has 300 jumps and is jumping with lead to get his swoop on and is loaded at 2:1?

Did manifest say "Yeah, we know. Darwin, and all that, you know."

Or did nobody tell manifest about this accident waiting to happen, and did all those who knew tell themselves "Darwin and all that, you know".

I, speaking for myself, don't want the FAA or the USPA to set wingloading limits. I want DZM's and O's to do that.

I prefer for it to not have to get to them, as I am not reticent to express my opinions to newbies. But if they don't listen, I tell on them. And I want the manager's and owners to protect these chowderheads from themselves.

We have a crazy-brave guy named McBain who we won't let jump the canopies he is all hot to swoop with.

Remember his name.

Because there are other dropzones that will let him jump whatever he wants. I'm hoping he only tib-fib's his way into wisdom.

I like Perris a lot. It is the first DZ I jumped at other than Byron, and I have tons of great friends there.

I'm hoping your friend just slipped through the cracks, JP. It would really bug me if management knew they had a 300 jump wonder on a plane wearing 20 pounds of lead, loaded at 2:1.

[hottamaly 1]

What a fabulous rant. I'll buy you a next time I see you. I've been wanting to say this to all the "know it alls" out there for a while now. When will they start listening to the experianced survivors?

Skydiving gave me a reason to live
I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live

[diablopilot 2]

In the end it's not managments responsibility. They do what they can. They should not be the target here. Just those jumpers that won't listen.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[IMGR2 0]

I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

There are way too many newbies now that think they know more than us.

I'm sad to say but I have pretty much stop trying to help cause all they do is think that we are trying to hold them back or just thriving of off preaching to them.

Good luck.

(edited to add:) I have two broke femurs between jumps 218 and 603. 4000 jumps later and no broke bones, I feel like I can speak from experience.

[mathias 0]

JP, I saw You in a cast a few Years ago, are You guilty of trying to much to early as well?
You are right that some times we wish that people would slow down and listen but they don't.

M

Ingen minns en fegis!

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

JP, I saw You in a cast a few Years ago, are You guilty of trying to much to early as well?

Possibly. Heck, probably. I'd like to think I was a bit more sane about my rebelion, and I was scared.

1.3-1.4 at 400-500 jumps(when I cracked my ankle) is alot different than 2.0 at sub 300. I really wish people would listen to those lesons we've already learned.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Casurf1978 0]

JP,

Really sorry about your friend, and hope/pray for a good surgery and speedy recovery.

[Ron 10]

Quote

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Quote
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JP, I saw You in a cast a few Years ago, are You guilty of trying to much to early as well?

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Possibly. Heck, probably. I'd like to think I was a bit more sane about my rebelion, and I was scared.

1.3-1.4 at 400-500 jumps(when I cracked my ankle) is alot different than 2.0 at sub 300. I really wish people would listen to those lesons we've already learned.

Ah, but here are the root problems.

1. Higher performance canopies mean low timers want higher performance canopies...While a Stiletto is still as high performance as it was 13 years ago....It is now seen as mid performance...Did the laws of physics change in the last 12 years?

2. Back when you were 1.4 at 300 jumps...I bet someone said it was a bad idea...And I bet you didn't listen either....

Add these two together and you have a guy with the same attitude you had with a MUCH higher performance canopy...This equals MUCH wose accidents and more of them.

You broke your ankle....He may never walk again.

I have said it before and here I go again.....Most people dont fucking need a Xbraced canopy....A guy that does 300 jumps a year should not have one...much less a guy that only has 300 jumps total.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Deuce 1]

Mathias, you have a point. I downsized from a Spectre 170 to a Spectre 150 at 400 jumps. After one successful jump I nearly tib-fibbed both my legs on the second one. I've never attempted to swoop the pond and I'm well aware of my clumsiness in general.

But nobody had told me not to do it. When Connie, Vic, Bonnie, Marty, et al. make a suggestion, I usually take it. When I am in doubt, I go to my mentor and take that advice. I have never done something that my mentor specifically advised me not to do.

I dug my divots by making a 90 degree front riser turn too low. After the fact, people asked me "what were you thinking" and the answer was that the decreased front riser pressure was lots of fun until I saw the ground rushing up.

I broke my ankle in Perris because I got cut off in the pattern and then stepped in a hole landing after a flat turn.

I know it's hard in my case to decide whether I'm more tough than stupid, or vice versa, but I waited 200 jumps before doing camera, 400 jumps before downsizing one size on the same canopy type, and 900 jumps before directly taking on the safety of new jumpers. All on the advice of folks I respect.

When a guy like JP makes a suggestion, and I don't get it, I'll talk with my mentor about it and incorporate it or decide not to based on knowledge. If I'm too stupid to listen, and intend on risking my life and the lives of other jumpes, I do think the DZ should deny my jumping priviledge until I smarten up.

PS. Whatever Swedish curse you put on me worked. After putting that mess on your windshield Sunday, when I got home my dog killed a skunk in my backyard.



Edit. I just figured out you were talking to SoCal JP, but I was low time and aggressive too.
I just answered my own earlier question: stupider.

[Treejumps 0]

Quote
"Most people dont F_____g need a Xbraced canopy....A guy that does 300 jumps a year should not have one...much less a guy that only has 300 jumps total"

Interesting that you would say this. I think that it has less to do with jumps per year and more to do with ego. I see people on xbrace canopies doing straight in approaches with their slider above their toggles and fully tightened chestraps and my only thought is that they could only be flying that canopy for ego. It certainly isn't for performance as evidenced by the approach and use of the canopy. If you're not into swooping why bother to fly a considerably more technical canopy that requires FULL attention at all times? Of well. perople will do what they want to, but I think we all agree on this stuff. I think you made a very good point about the percieved relative performance of canopies.

Cya.

[StearmanR985 0]

Hey JP,

Sorry to hear about your friend, I am sorry that he did not listen to you. I certainly hope the healing goes well for him.

For you JP and some of you other posters here, just remember that some of us "jump wonders", "wannabes", "naturals" or whatever we may be called DO listen. It just may take a little extra convincing thats all. I am a perfect example, having jumped a few demos at 100 jumps loaded at 1.4 including a couple of elipticals I ended up staying with what I have. Believe it or not, it was mostly due to people right here on DZ.com (that I have yet to even meet) that convinced me to stay on my Tri for a little while longer.

So for that, I thank you; JP, Bonnie, Ed, Ian, amongst others.

Just wanted to try a throw a little positive vibe out there with regards to us newbies and wing loadings.

Jeffrey

[diablopilot 2]

Thank you. I'm glad it works sometimes. I guess the "battle" is still worth the effort.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ManBird 0]

Tree: right on. It trips me out to see someone landing a highly loaded Crossfire straight in, usually not very well. Bye bye, knees and ankles. I don't get it.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[kansasskydiver 0]

I understand your anger. There are 2 jumpers that come and go at our dz that have been wingloading over 2.0 since about 200 jumps. They didn't start with us and only make maybe 10-20 jumps a year with us. Personally I don't think they're safe, both have around 500 jumps and have had 500 jumps since I was a student, I know have 600...

The comment that bothered me most was that one of the dudes worked with my gf's dad at the time and he told him that I was going to kill myself under my Sabre 170. The next time I saw him I comfronted him and asked him what his theory was, he went on to go about that the sabre had a shorter recovery arch and I was just setting myself up for a low turn in the end. His suggestion... Buy his Alpha 104 and fly that instead. I lost all respect for him and haven't jumped with him since. He has repeatidly tried to pass of his canopy to others seeing as he can't sell it and is jumping a FX 96 now.

I just don't understand and never will, the only thing I can do is advise others and read and listen. The ignorant ones who don't listen or understand the dynamics of canopy flight are the next ones to hook in. The ones who turn low and are digging in the corner and when you tell them they respond with "Dude I was high and what do you know?"

I feel your pain man I really do

<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist!

[daveb 1]

Quote

I think that it has less to do with jumps per year and more to do with ego.

I agree wholeheartedly. I've a pretty healthy ego, but I also enjoy the use of my legs, and enough sense that if I push too hard, one or both will get pasted.

In the hope that perhaps a positive example is worthwhile, I'll outline my choices. I have over 2000 jumps, and fly a Stiletto 120 loaded 1.6. I have about 1000 jumps on this canopy size, flying in almost every condition except high-altitude DZs (e.g. Denver), including the 672-way in Bangkok (congested, tiny, no outs), numerous 100+ big ways, and 4-ways in most meteorological conditions, and can safely fly the canopy to where I want to land.

I am not getting all the performance from my canopy that it is capable of, and I believe I lack to the experience to downsize. I have set myself a restriction that I will not downsize again until I at least take a canopy control course, with the intention of really learning to fly what I have. Why downsize to force better performance when learning the ins-and-outs of my canopy will allow me to fly better, in more control, and with a margin for error? Perhaps when I discover how to fly my canopy better, I will no longer feel a need to downsize.

I have had to put aside my ego often with my choice. I am frequently, albeit good-naturedly teased by my teammates and friends about flying a 'boat', and have had numerous offers to fly and/or buy a smaller, more aggressive canopy. The reality is that nobody you care about will think less of you for NOT pushing too hard, that recognizing what is too hard requires more than a few hundred jumps, and there is plenty of wisdom on the net and at your DZ to be had for the asking.