when is the right time to learn to use rear risers for surfing a landing?

[yoink 321]

For those who are interested, I currently have 108 jumps, jump a Sabre 135 loaded at 1.14:1 and am happy to land it on my rear risers alone. I generally land using double fronts at the moment.

however, seeing people swoop, many seem to start planing their canopy on rear risers and transfer to toggles later in the surf.

When is the best time to learn to do this? When I have more jumps? Will it have any effect on my size canopy? Any advice would be appreciated...
Many thanks

Will

edited to make the subject clearer

[Yoshi 0]

please only take my input with a grain of salt as there are many more experienced "swoopers" here... I say no matter what kind of canopy you fly it is a good thing to learn to land in rears only. if you have a broken steering line it will come in handy to know that you dont need to chop it...this is more pertinent to higher wing loads, but always applies with your control checks..etc..( I have actually had that happen on a crew jump with a star tack 220 which I landed in only rears). I have also spent about 20 jumps or so landing my crossfire in only rear risers. I found that even on light wind days I can let go of my toggles completely and land only in rears with little nto no run out at the end of my swoop...as for swooping... you may want to hold off a little before adding another step to your swoop until you have a few more jumps under your belt. while many swoopers (including myself) use rears to pane out, this is to keep the speed up, and get a little more distance without distorting the shape of the canopy as much for the initial part of the swoop. with 100 jumps you have plenty of time to get the technique more dialed in. I would stick with double fronts and work your progression until you get to more angles approaches. once those are at a nice level and working well for you then you may want to digress a bit back to double fronts or a slow 90 carver while using the rear risers to plane out (always practice up high with your technique before applying it to you landing practices close to the ground-of course). you could even start now (practicing up high) and then moving towards a normal streight in approach using a little rear riser to plane out. definately be aware of your stall point and get the feel for it before getting close to the ground as (depending on what canopy) it can vary drasticly from your toggles to your risers. the stalls on risers tend to be a little faster and at at shorter "toggle stroke" than with your toggles..
hope that helps.. be safe

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[superstu 0]

i have very little skydiving experience, but i have been using my rears swooping on the right occassion.
for me it's all about feel, jump numbers don't really mean much, it's more about how well you know you're canopy, how well you fly that canopy, and how comfortable you are in the present situation (each jump is a different situation, knowing the right time is one of the most important factors in my opinion).
i also tried stuff up high to see how my canopy reacted. when i brought it down to ground level i was under a somewhat lightly loaded canopy and was taking things very slow (i still am taking things very slow).
so, like i said before i have very very limited experience, some on here probibly wouldn't even consider me experienced, but i wrote any way. talk to those guys you see swooping and listen to them, listen to the experienced guys on here (skymonkeyone et al.), and search the posts as well, and you might find what you're looking for.

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[davelepka 4]

1. Never let go of your toggles when landing with rear risers. Having them in your hands will make a big difference if you need them.

2. Since you can land straight in with your rear risers, you can handle a broken steering line. Leave it at that. Get yourself another two hundred jumps before you do anything but straight in approaches, and then, get some tips from an experienced swwoper the day you try a 45 degree turn.

3. Don't try to rear riser surf out of a double front approach. Rear risers are good for swooping only if you are doing a turn with a long dive, where you have time to get a secure and even grip on your risers during the dive. The double front approach doesn't give you enough time to comfortably grab the risers after releasing the fronts.

4. It is all about jump numbers. Even the most gifted swooper out there didn't know dick when he started jumping. Every pro will tell you they know more now than they did 500 jumps ago. Why? Experience. Repetition. Exposure to different wind and weather conditions, different canopys and DZ's.

5. Take it slow and easy. You are the poster child (statiscally speaking) for an incident. Be aware of this and proceed with caution.

[yoink 321]

cool.. thanks for the advice...

general consensus seems to be wait a while.. thanks, that's what I was looking for - just wasn't sure whether it was something good to practice on a lightly loaded canopy or only something to do with enough experience.

Will

[Yoshi 0]

I also appreciate the reply. it makes sense now (after hearing it) to not advise on rears with a double front approach.

btw: I was not in any way implying anyone should attempt rear riser only landings without the toggles in hand. that is just something I did after about 15 rear riser landings with the toggles in hand so I could see if there was a difference (and there was a little bit of difference) I think mainly due to the faxt even if you are using rears, when your toggles are in your hands and you pull on a riser it still pulls the tail a little bit. It wasnt a huge difference, but it did seem like I had to pull a little further on the rears (without the toggles in hand) to get that last bit of "stop"...

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[davelepka 4]

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you on this one.

Pulling the rear riser with your toggle in hand is no different than without. The toggles relationship to the guide ring (AKA full flight) does not change when you pull the rear riser. Togggle in hand or not, it remains seated against the guide ring during the input.

Regardless, is not a safe practice to land without your toggles in your hands. The rear risers are too sensitive to inputs to be effective in emergency situations. A low turn, unexpected traffic, or gusty/turbulent winds will present problems better suited to toggle initiated recovery. As discussed in another current thread (High speed stalls?) Brian Germain explains this very fact in reference to digging out of the corner, and how the increased sensitivity of the rear riser can more easliy lead to a high speed stall. This would also apply to an emergency carve to avoid an unexpected obstacle mid-swoop, where your toggles would give a higher degree of control by providing a greater range of motion pre-stall, helping to dampen any over corection or ham-fistedness brought on by the emergency situation.

[Yoshi 0]

Quote

Pulling the rear riser with your toggle in hand is no different than without. The toggles relationship to the guide ring (AKA full flight) does not change when you pull the rear riser. Togggle in hand or not, it remains seated against the guide ring during the input.

I cant explain this one... but it seemed as if I had to use a little more input on the bottom end of the flare. I may have been imagining things (or it could have been other conditions..wind...speed...etc that led me to beleive this)

as far as landing without the toggles in hand.. while I dont suggest it to anyone, I dont think it is an extreemly high risk thing to do. I understand the possibilities of a stall...and while I agree it is not something to be done on every jump (especially with emergency situations as you explained) it is something I have only attempted on hop and pops, when I am the only canopy in the air, and not doing any radical turns on approach (so no need to dig out), or with sketchy wind conditions. I do think it is something that can be done very safely if you know what to expect. as I said before I am not an extremely experienced swooper... fairly low experience compared to alot of people in fact, but it is something that I feel is a good tool to have, and I aspire to learn more while landing with only rears. I usually only use rears for the initlal plane out and about 50+ or so feet of my swoop since staying in rears the entire swoop compromises my distance...

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[BrianSGermain 1]

Having your toggles in your hands will have no effect on the performance of a rear riser flare UNLESS there is tension on the brake lines during the rear riser application.

If your brakes are set tightly, there will be a small degree of improvement in rear riser slow flight. This is why some swoopers have a separate brake line from the cascade-point to the rear riser link. It does seem to work, but the effect is not terribly significant or noticible on light wingloadings.

The point that was being made was that having the toggles in your hands when performing rear risers landings provides another option in the event that you need to abort. If you turn too low or dive too long, the toggles are a much better way to save yourself. You may not need them, but it's important to have them ready to save your butt.
+

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[davelepka 4]

I'm not suggesting that landing with rear risers is in any way wrong. I'm saying that not having the toggles in your hands gets you ZERO increase in performance, and will SIGNIFICANLY hamper you if you should need those toggles at some point.

Emergencies, by thier very nature, are unexpected. Be prepared for them in every way possible, especially when doing so will not adversely effect your landing.

[BrianSGermain 1]

the previous posts are listed in reverse order, so don't get confused...

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[BrianSGermain 1]

Curious, how are you suggesting that having the toggles in your hands during rear riser landing will "severely hamper" you?

I have perfomed many thousands of rear riser landings, and have not experienced any hampering at all.
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[davelepka 4]

Re-read which ever post you're reffering to. You may have missed the word 'not'.

I said that not having them in your hands will severly hamper you if you should need them.

Of course I may have forgotten to type the word 'Not', but if you read the posts, I am 100% pro toggle-in-hands at all times.

[Yoshi 0]

Quote

not having the toggles in your hands gets you ZERO increase in performance, and will SIGNIFICANLY hamper you if you should need those toggles at some point.

agreed...

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[BrianSGermain 1]

Gotcha. I misinterpreted your sentence.

The "Zero effect" was the primary point I was trying to address. It all depends on the canopy. Regardless, I see that your point is that there are no disadvantages to keeping your toggles.

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

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