short vs long recovery arc

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I just read in another thread that it is suggested for a new hp canopy pilot to have a canopy with a short recovery arc. Why is this? I understand that it pulls out of a dive quicker, and I see how this could be thought to be safer because if someone pulls too low, they can just drop the risers and come out of the dive sooner than they would on a canopy with a longer recovery arc. But, on canopies with shorter recovery arcs, in order to come out of a dive at a perfect point, you have to initiate your turn lower. And so, you're kinda playing with fire taking it lower and lower and having to be perfect every time, right? If you were on a canopy with a longer recovery arc, wouldn't this leave more room for error because you could err on the safe side and start your dive a little higher and your canopy would stay in a dive longer. Of course, you could still dig out if you need to, right? What am I missing? Why is a canopy with a short recovery arc better for newer pilots?

I just didn't want to get the other thread off topic. Thanks.
angela.

[PhreeZone 20]

What thread are you refering to and who said it?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[diablopilot 2]

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Why is a canopy with a short recovery arc better for newer pilots?

Because when the person is "deep in the corner" on a short recovery arc canopy, they have a chance to "dig" out. On a less forgiving, longer diving canopy, they may not.

As for bringing the turn "lower, and lower" it may be easier to get a perceptual reference closer to the landning area. "Lower" does not always equate with "unsafe". Canopys with shorter recovery arc's often do not need to be dived as hard or as long to get the desired result, giving the user more chance to learn progressively, through slowly increasingly larger degees of turns. A Stiletto can be landed straight in very well, and a higher performance lading can be produced through as little as a 45 degree turn to final. While a Velocity can be flown the same way, it takes far mor skill and finess to get the same result.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[sarge 0]

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Why is a canopy with a short recovery arc better for newer pilots?

I think of it as the longer recovery arc allows for more speed-building potential because the pilot has a lot more altitude to use to generate/maintain speed for a HP landing. There is also a greater potential for other things to be happening in that extra airspace. Traffic management, course adjustements and precision inputs demand a very attentive pilot; hopefully already possessing some developed HP skills.

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I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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What thread are you refering to and who said it?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=895137;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

The last post in that thread.

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Angela. I think of it as the longer recovery arc allows for more speed-building potential because the pilot has a lot more altitude to use to generate/maintain speed for a HP landing. There is also a greater potential for other things to be happening in that extra airspace. Traffic management, course adjustements and precision inputs demand a very attentive pilot; hopefully already possessing some developed HP skills.

So, what you're saying is that the longer diving canopies are not so good for newer pilots because they will have to set up higher and deal with more traffic on the way down? I am not sure I understand exactly, please verify/correct my interpretation.

thx.
Angela.

[johnny1488 1]

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So, what you're saying is that the longer diving canopies are not so good for newer pilots because they will have to set up higher and deal with more traffic on the way down? I am not sure I understand exactly, please verify/correct my interpretation.

I think people are erring on the side of caution. A canopy with a longer recovery arc is much harder to get out of "the corner". It wants to dive. Its much safer for a newer HP pilot to go cruising over the ground at 20ft that being up to their waist in earth. A newer pilot should avoid traffic in a clear pattern and landing area and focus more on the landing itself. A shorter recover arc adds a margin of safety. Once they gain proficiency, they very well might want to move to a design with a longer recovery arc, but this characteristic does not especially help a HP student. This is not to say you cant kill yourself on a Safire or stilleto (not similar designs, mind you, just short recovery arcs). You can kill yourself on any canopy. But I think a short recovery arc lends itself to the learning curve (or arc, as it were.)

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[rhino 0]

People flying canopies with a short recovery arc shouldn't be in the corner to begin with.

They should be mastering SLOW SPEED FLIGHT.........

Rhino

[Hooknswoop 19]

FWIW, here is my perceptions on recovery arcs and learning hook turns;

A longer recovery arc means, for the optimum performance, the turn must be initiated at a higher altitude. Given say a 10% margin for error, the longer the recovery arc, the larger the 'window' for initiating the hook is.

I don't think a canopy with a longer recovery arc takes more altitude to recover to level flight from the same airspeed/altitude/WL, etc as a canopy with a shorter recovery arc.

The downside to the longer recovery arc is the higher speeds that things happen at. This gives the pilot less time to recongize there is a problem and react.

So the speeds of a manta and the recovery arc of a x-braced canopy would be ideal for learning hook turns. Obviously this canopy doesn't exist, so a comprimise must be made between recovery arc and speed. The longer the recovery arc the better, the slower the speed the better.

Derek

[johnny1488 1]

Yes yes, of course, woulda shoulda coulda, I am thinking real world were things do not go acording to plan. I think it best to try to stack the odds on the side of inexpierence. And yes, slow flight always comes first.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[grega 0]

so why not getting
-bigger canopy (slower speed)
-HP design - xf2, CC, velocity, fx, vx,.. (longer recovery arc)
and you have both in one .

So here i come to an old thread of mine again. Would it be bad to learn on HP crossbraced canopy loaded at lower wingloadings? you have bigger canopy for "slower" speed, and the longer recovery arc for "bigger window". i know that "bigger window" depends a lot on wl, but on Velo. 100 probably there's a "bigger window" than on stilleto 100.
so again would it be bad to learn swooping on crossbraced canopy loaded less than 1.8? Wouldn't a swooping student benefit from that combination?

"George just lucky i guess!"

[johnny1488 1]

I jumped a safire2 169 and a xfire2 169 after that. I was loading the canopies a little under 1.4 The xfire did have a longer recovery arc, but not all that much at that loading. I could be wrong but I think the speeds were similar but the safire leveled off in less altitude.

Loading really seemed the key to make the longer recovery arc work. So at a loading a new HP canopy student should probably be working at, I dont think a particularly HP design will make much of a difference. A mid range canopy would work just as well for the beginning. I think the loading is what whould be the main concern to help keep a HP student safe and learning quicker.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome