Samurai

[yurbai 0]

May be i bomped tougles while doing that. I think that is probably the cause, but on the other hand, when I did 180 at 500 it recovered at about 70-80 feet. I started to do double fronts after that.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

when I did 180 at 500 it recovered at about 70-80 feet.

Wow.

Is your tail being deflected when you pull your risers? What kind of turn are you doing? A snap turn or a carve?

The closest thing I have to compare to a Sam is that I jumped a Vengence for about 30-40 jumps loaded at 1.9:1. I started my 270 around 600' or so and it tended to plane out just about right. Sometimes a tad high, sometimes a tad low.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Canuck 0]

Not that I'm totally hung up on profiles and jump numbers, but are you seriously jumping a Stiletto 120 @1.6 with 85 jumps?

Canuck

[yurbai 0]

actually i have jedi. but as I understand it supposed to have even longe recovery arc. No my tail is all right, at least it seems to be all right, but I guess I will check it again when the weather gets beter.

[AggieDave 6]

You might wanna e-mail Brian Germain on that one, ask him about it.

Is your profile correct? 1.6 at <100 jumps? Hell, 1.6 at 500+ jumps is pretty high.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[yurbai 0]

yep, thet's me. Thanks for the advice, I think that's a good idea to ask Brian. Thanks.

[Canuck 0]

While you're at it, ask Brian what he thinks about you jumpng a 120 with 85 jumps.

And the question that begs to be answered, who the hell is the S&TA at Lodi!!?? You would think the dude who killed himself there jumping a Stiletto with less than a 100 jumps a few months ago might have clued them in.

Canuck

[yurbai 0]

I don't wanna sound ignorant, and don't wanna sound like hey, I am better then everybody else, and I am not. But every rule has an exception, even though I have <100 jumps I am pretty damn confident in what I am doing. I understand that number of jumps indicates a lot, but also there is always a chance that different people sometimes get to the same point in different time.
Plus I am not stupid and I am very concerned with safety. I have a lot of reasons to live and walk by myself.
The only thing I ask is don't judge me before you even know me, or at least saw me.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

who the hell is the S&TA at Lodi!!??

Probably the same guy who sold the stilletto to that kid who killed himself with 40 odd jumps in Lodi.

But you already knew that
Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Kris 0]

Quote

I don't wanna sound ignorant, and don't wanna sound like hey, I am better then everybody else, and I am not. But every rule has an exception, even though I have <100 jumps I am pretty damn confident in what I am doing. I understand that number of jumps indicates a lot, but also there is always a chance that different people sometimes get to the same point in different time.
Plus I am not stupid and I am very concerned with safety. I have a lot of reasons to live and walk by myself.
The only thing I ask is don't judge me before you even know me, or at least saw me.

And everyone else who hooked themselves in jumping a canopy they weren't ready for has said the exact same thing.

Whoever is letting you jump your canopy at Lodi really needs to reexamine their damn conscience.

Face it, you're a DGIT (Dead Guy In Training) and you don't even know it.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[yurbai 0]

Aren't we getting of topic?

[BrianSGermain 1]

My experience of the Samurai, which of course is somewhat extensive, is that it continues to dive long enough for me to start my turn at a reasonably high altitude. If the terminology of "negative recovery arc" is bugging folks, we can discuss another term.

The tendency for a canopy to stay in a dive and maintain its speed is a function of many variables, one of which is the canopy design. We must also consider that a carving maneuver, when executed properly, dives differently than a hard hook. Hard hooks tend to increase the "g" loading, which in turn hypes up the riser pressure. If you arrive at final approach heading too high following a whip-type turn, you can pretty much give up any hope of holding the wing in a dive unless it is trimmed steep and is flown at a high wing loading.

The truth is, a lightly loaded canopy will have a fairly strong positive recovery arc, even on a high performance canopy. By "light", I mean less than 1.3 lbs/sf. We must also take into consideration the very relevant component of "density altitude". In the case of Drew Eckhart, remember that he is flying in Colorado, one mile above sea level. A Manta dives pretty well up there...

I general, we have found that a canopy that maintains a high speed and moderate descent rate, and moderate front riser pressure following the diving turn will be easier to land. The reason for this is simple: We aren't perfect. We therefore must favor a turn on the high side. Assuming all this, a canopy that dives for a while will have a larger window of opportunity to carry speed into the level-off phase of the landing, which results in a better surf.

It is unarguable that a steep entry into the swoop is undesirable from the perspective of safety as well as efficiency. This was not what I meant when I referred to "bumping the toggles". I was simply stating that it is easy to level off with only minimal tail input. Optimum efficiency comes as a result of a perfectly timed turn with a canopy that has a positive recovery arc OR a smooth, subtle tail input to level off with a canopy that dives. Rear risers are the best way to preserve airspeed in this case, of course, but the dangers of this kind of landing make it a bad choice for all but the best pilots. High speed stalls are a very real possibility, and not a pretty sight indeed.

Sorry for the lengthy explanation, but I wanted to be sure to cover the topic. Unfortunately, I merely scratched the surface. I guess that's why I'm writing another book... (The Parachute and its Pilot)

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[sdctlc 0]

Sorry for the lengthy explanation, but I wanted to be sure to cover the topic. Unfortunately, I merely scratched the surface. I guess that's why I'm writing another book... (The Parachute and its Pilot)
Learn more:
Live longer.
http://www.bigairsportz.com

Brian,

When is the book comming out!. Liked the explaniation by the way..

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[BrianSGermain 1]

It's getting closer. I think it's about half way there. I will be making it available in a pre-press version within a couple of months.

Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com
Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com
Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

even though I have <100 jumps I am pretty damn confident in what I am doing

Guess what? The first guy I saw hook in had about 90 jumps. He thought he was squared away too, but he was only loading at 1.2-ish:1.

He shattered a couple vertabre, broke his pelvis, broke his neck, shattered his face, blew out his knees, broke both femurs, hit so hard he knocked an eyeball out of his head. On the bright side, it only took about 12 surgeries to reconstruct his face, and he started walking again last year (2 years after he hooked in) amd he's perminately blind.

Guess what, he wasn't even trying to hook/swoop. It was a low turn to turn back into the wind for landing.

He thought he could handle the canopy.

Well, I'm probably wrong, you probably are special, just like him.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

Oh, I wanted to add something.

That was the 1st of a total of 5 people I seen hook in. All of them thought they were squared away enough for their canopy. Guess what? 3 are dead, one is fucked for life (the one from the first post) and another has jumped again since he hooked in, although he should be dead (it had rained the week before, so the ground was very soft, he was lucky), but he's only done 1 jump since then and he may or may not do anymore. His life has definately changed.

You are not special, no matter what you think, you can not handle a canopy at that wingloading at your experience level. That sounds harsh, but I don't want to read about you in Incidents and in Parachutist, I've seen enough people fucked up and seen enough people die. There is plenty of time for you to build your skill and downsize.

I know you're going to ignore me, so when you hook in, I'll read your incident report and say "I told you so!"

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

But every rule has an exception, even though I have <100 jumps I am pretty damn confident in what I am doing

hey my guy, i don't know you at all. i have never met you, but i can tell you right now i don't need to, to say that with that attitude right there you will get hurt if you dont change it soon. i mean, you have too think about it, you have 100 jumps, and jump a wing loading of 1.6. i mean, you don't even have to do a hook turn too low to get fucked up at that wing loading, if you just do your final turn too low, your going to get hurt.

i hate judging people, and i usually don't, i'm not one of the people who bash people for jumping small canopies, but you are cocky and jumping a small canopy, and you will get hurt if you don't change your attitude.

just be careful, and maybe you'll jump a bigger canopy for a while, hell borrow one. i'm sure someone will let you.

lata

[hookitt 1]

Oh man... how can I not respond to this after reading it.

You are missing out on a massive part of learning and don't even know it. At your experience level, you don't know what a parachute is capable of. You can be as confident as you want but it's a fact. I know what the conditions are around you and what it takes to land safely. I REALLY hope I don't read about you.

I'm not judging you as a person but I do know beyond a doubt, that it's way over your head to be jumping that canopy no matter how confident you are.

It hurts really bad to smack the ground or fence or rocks and street pole....and it would be worse if you're lying next to the goats in a small field near that store you guys buy beer at. I've landed there I'm not making that place up. You will land over there or someplace similar, like a back yard, the grape stakes, street with power lines... etc.

I've landed in places just like what I just mentioned and way worse.

skygod7777 is right on with his attitude and suggestions. None of us want to judge your abilities, we've just seen this a few too many times and would prefer that your health be as good as it is many years from now.

Just be careful cuz that parachute is a lot more parachute than you think. Take care.

Tim

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[freeflydrew 0]

and the clock ticks...

To add to Hookitt's post: LAnding the parachute is the last of an entire sequence of events in which you can very easily hurt/kill yourself and/or someone else. By jumping down to a canopy you don't have the experience to be flying, you are making the sport that much more dangerous for the people around you. You won't understand that yer, but with time and experience, you'll see how much our own safety depends a lot on the people around us.

Not only that, but by downsizing with this amount of experience, you may set a poor example for other new members of our sport, promoting premature downsizing.

Be safe

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

jumps I am pretty damn confident in what I am doing. I understand that number of jumps indicates a lot, but also there is always a chance that different people sometimes get to the same point in different time.

I (used to) know dead people who have said that.

Quote

I don't wanna sound ignorant,

Don't worry you already are.

Do yourself and everyone else in this sport a favor. Hang up the rag you're flying now, find something 2 sizes bigger, and wring the everlovin' shit out of it. You'll get to be a better pilot so much faster that way.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I will just concur with everyone else on here who has told you that you have downsized too rapidly and are jumping too much of a parachute for your experience level. But hey, what do I know; I have only been jumping 23 years and swooping since the term was coined.

Chuck

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

who the hell is the S&TA at Lodi!!??

Fred Smith.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Cajones 0]

I will double-concur with my Brother Mono-Uno...

I will also add a few extra words.

The Samurai may be an excellent canopy choice for you. It is definitely a high-performance canopy. When you load it up - it can give some huge fun (or huge pain).

Load it a bit more conservatively, and it can put you on the road to a lifetime of learning.

I will not tell you to stop swooping or exploring the capabilities of your canopy. Instead, get an appropriately sized canopy and get some good, quality instruction.

- Cajones

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[kaerock 1]

Canopy Nazi diatribe thread hijacking aside,

One huge advantage of having a negative recovery arc is that it keeps you erring on the side of caution when swooping. Generally when you are setting up for a high-performance landing and you are rather high, you plain out higher than you wanted, you will still be able to salvage the swoop as you retain much of your speed. Generally if you have to stab because you are low, you will lose your elegant swoop, inching down each successive swoop to reach your goal of perfection. Foolishly, this is when you biff. A negative recovery arc would give you extra incentive in always turning 'a little high', rather than trying to inching it down. So, therefore, having a negative recovery arc can get you in the habit of 'missing' high rather than stabbing, saving your life and your swoop. ;> I think short recovery arcs teach people bad bad habits of trying to push it lower until they smack in. With this idea in mind, I think that if you are learning to swoop, it should not be on a short-recovery-arc canopy (personally I'd go for the Samurai).

-R

Quote

My experience of the Samurai, which of course is somewhat extensive, is that it continues to dive long enough for me to start my turn at a reasonably high altitude. If the terminology of "negative recovery arc" is bugging folks, we can discuss another term.

The tendency for a canopy to stay in a dive and maintain its speed is a function of many variables, one of which is the canopy design. We must also consider that a carving maneuver, when executed properly, dives differently than a hard hook. Hard hooks tend to increase the "g" loading, which in turn hypes up the riser pressure. If you arrive at final approach heading too high following a whip-type turn, you can pretty much give up any hope of holding the wing in a dive unless it is trimmed steep and is flown at a high wing loading.

The truth is, a lightly loaded canopy will have a fairly strong positive recovery arc, even on a high performance canopy. By "light", I mean less than 1.3 lbs/sf. We must also take into consideration the very relevant component of "density altitude". In the case of Drew Eckhart, remember that he is flying in Colorado, one mile above sea level. A Manta dives pretty well up there...

I general, we have found that a canopy that maintains a high speed and moderate descent rate, and moderate front riser pressure following the diving turn will be easier to land. The reason for this is simple: We aren't perfect. We therefore must favor a turn on the high side. Assuming all this, a canopy that dives for a while will have a larger window of opportunity to carry speed into the level-off phase of the landing, which results in a better surf.

It is unarguable that a steep entry into the swoop is undesirable from the perspective of safety as well as efficiency. This was not what I meant when I referred to "bumping the toggles". I was simply stating that it is easy to level off with only minimal tail input. Optimum efficiency comes as a result of a perfectly timed turn with a canopy that has a positive recovery arc OR a smooth, subtle tail input to level off with a canopy that dives. Rear risers are the best way to preserve airspeed in this case, of course, but the dangers of this kind of landing make it a bad choice for all but the best pilots. High speed stalls are a very real possibility, and not a pretty sight indeed.

Sorry for the lengthy explanation, but I wanted to be sure to cover the topic. Unfortunately, I merely scratched the surface. I guess that's why I'm writing another book... (The Parachute and its Pilot)

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[murps2000 86]

Just curious. What was your canopy progression? What did you jump before the stiletto 120?