DZO Bans Hook Turns-advice?

[blair700 0]

Hello everyone,
I apologize in advance if this is the wrong forum, or an inappropriate post, but I wanted to hear from other jumpers who may have experience with this situation. At the end of this post is an excerpt from our DZO's 'Weekly Update'. Please read it and let me know what you think. I've already emailed the DZO and asked what is his definition of a 'hook turn'; if this is a blanket statement on anything other than a straight in approach, front riser approach, high speed approach etc. I've not got a response yet, but just wanted to see what y'all thought.
Thanks in advance
Blair

[snip] Safety Tip: Last week my safety tip was about landings and flying your canopy in the landing pattern. I mentioned that no hook turns or radical turns are allowed. I received a couple of emails asking if I am banning these types of turns. The answer to that question is yes. Common sense will tell you that hook turns or radical turns will injure or kill skydivers. If you do not believe so, go back and read every copy of Parachutist Incident Reports. I bet you that in just about every issue you will read about a hook or radical turn landing injuring or killing someone. They simply are unsafe. I am sure that some skydivers will take issue with this approach. Some will say that I am taking away their right to fly a canopy anyway they want. To an extent that may be true. However, as a DZO and an S&TA, I have a right to keep our drop zone safe for everyone. And I believe this a smart and sensible thing to do. I would love to hear your opinion about this subject. You have a right to voice it.

[Hooknswoop 19]

It's their sandbox. If you don't like it, there really is nothing you can do once you express your opinion to the DZO if they don't change their policy.

I think this will happen more and more.

Canopy control education is not mandatory past the “A” license. Jumpers do not want to be restricted to lower wing loadings until the have proved themselves and gotten some canopy control training/education. The result is people hammering in. DZO’s risk liability and lost business from injuries. Some have instituted their own WL limit policies, with some very restricted and inflexible.

More and more DZO’s will no longer want to deal with people jumping too small of a canopy and implement policies such as this. WL limits/ hook turn bans will become more and more prevalent and they will be more restrictive than any BSR would have been.

Derek

[ccowden 0]

I would say you need to know his definition of a hook turn. If he is banning ALL high performance, front riser landings, then that is certainly an issue. I would just talk to him and see where he is coming from and what exactly he is banning.

Skydiving is dangerous. Jumping out of airplanes kills skydivers. I agree that radical hookturns that are done recklessly should not be tolerated, but banning all types of riser turns is not the answer. There are alot of people that would say jumping out of planes is stupid and an unecessary risk. Why is one risk ok, and another not? Education and understanding is the answer. Not banning.

But he is the DZO, so if you don't agree with how he wants to run his DZ, I guess you have to go elsewhere. Either that, or follow his rules. But my advice is to talk to him.

[AggieDave 6]

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I would say you need to know his definition of a hook turn.

Seriously, since more of a carving turn is what a lot of people do anyways.

My opinion of a hook turn is a snapping type turn, where you end up swinging out then back like a pendilum, that's similar to a lot of people's opinions as well.

Anyways, if they're all banned, start doing hard harness turns and getting killer swoops, I'm sure that'll get under his skin...there's more then one way to swoop.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[marks 0]

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I would say you need to know his definition of a hook turn.

my defanition = toggle monkey.

[ManBird 0]

Let's be realistic. I think he's banning any turn to final... toggle or front riser. Straight-in landings only. Put in a pond and make people practice over water. C'mon... it's not like it's a ton of work or money. Oh, wait...

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[jdhill 0]

Once you get a definition of hook turn you'll have two choices... 1) live with it; 2) take your business elsewhere.

My guess is the definition will cover any speed inducing turn to landing, carve, toggle, risers, whatever... it is a narrow minded approach to safety, but its his DZ...

My home DZ has banned x-wind landings in the main landing area... noone (except the skybarge pilots) really likes it, but we either live with it, or go elsewhere to land (and periodically try to change the rule ...

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[SkydiveMO 0]

I was jumping at a DZ that implemented a no hook-turn policy some years ago. Many of the jumpers were unhappy with the change and a few even left the DZ, but in the end things quieted down and… well nobody hook-turned anymore. Say what you may the DZ had the lowest injury rate in the area. DZOs are running a business and someone pounding in under canopy is just bad for business.

[shunkka 0]

maybe it`s not the best answer and maybe it`s not the best place 2 put my question

FROM START I SAY i`m a student and i understand when someone told me not 2 do somthing or not 2 do somthing else

but for experienced skydivers how can a DZO ban hook turns or somthing else
it`s our life, and we can decide about it
as long as we respect others and others safety why a DZO or someone else can ban our liberty
this sport means liberty, freedom, so why a DZO have this right?

-------------------------
"jump, have fun, pull"

[ccowden 0]

It is his business. His dropzone. He can run it anyway he wants. Although it may not be in the best interest of keeping his business thriving.

[PhreeZone 20]

>Although it may not be in the best interest of keeping his business thriving.

As long as it does'nt affect the student side of the business I doubt that having 5 ot 6 jumpers leave will really affect their bottom line.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Jimbo 0]

Doesn't SGC also ban hook turns?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[craddock 0]

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DZOs are running a business and someone pounding in under canopy is just bad for business.

Could you please explain this? Do you have any facts, examples to provide also. I would be very interested which DZ's have had business suffer because of an experienced jumper getting hurt performing a high performance landing.

Thank you,
Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[diablopilot 2]

If you can't figure out how dead bodies can be detrimental to a buisnesses success, you might need to check your common sense level.

That said, I would not jump at a DZ that had such a ban on high performace turns.

But it is a buisness owners right to run as they see fit.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[SkydiveMO 0]

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Could you please explain this? Do you have any facts, examples to provide also. I would be very interested which DZ's have had business suffer because of an experienced jumper getting hurt performing a high performance landing.

You have to think of the down time, when a skydiver is seriously injured the DZ shuts down, at least at the drop zones I’ve jumped at. Everything stops until the jumper has been cared for and hauled off in the ambulance. Now admittedly I'm a small DZ kinda guy and I’m making an assumption (and yes I know what that can mean) that we’re speaking of a small to medium DZ making the no hook turn rule. Every little bit of income counts to smaller DZs and downtime does have an effect.

I had a DZO tell me once that if he could grow instructors he’d never have a need for regular jumpers, then he’d just have students and he could really turn a profit. The only motivation he had to keep experienced skydivers happy was they sometimes became instructors. Now he meant that partly in jest but he was still pretty steamed at a jumper who crashed in earlier in the day pushing their luck hook turning. He had to stop operating to care for the jumper and in the end he lost more then half his student business for the day. Now, if we’re talking about the big drop zones then a jumper pounding in once in awhile probably has no affect on buisness.

[craddock 0]

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If you can't figure out how dead bodies can be detrimental to a buisnesses success, you might need to check your common sense level.

Well- while the post I replied to made no mention of "dead bodies", your smart ass response does little to provide me with any facts. One can make wild assumptions regardless of common sense level, but those assumptions do not always correlate with reality.
Since you brought upp dead bodies...Having been around my share of fatalities in several high risk sports, I have not seen enough evidence to make the statement that it was bad for business. So I asked for some.

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But it is a buisness owners right to run as they see fit

Really? Is that your common sense talking?

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.