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twnsnd 1
LOL! 
-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-
-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-
PhreeZone 20
If you can't throw a toggle turn then you have a lot to learn yet about the range of the canopy. Its a nice skill to have.
I threw 3 straight toggle hooks Sunday since the pattern was not letting me do one any higher then about 300 feet so a nice 180 toggle from 200 feet or so was a nice compromise.
I threw 3 straight toggle hooks Sunday since the pattern was not letting me do one any higher then about 300 feet so a nice 180 toggle from 200 feet or so was a nice compromise.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
QuoteHarness sensitivity does increase with wing loading, but using nothing but the harness for your turn seems stupid. It seems like you could get a better result with a more direct input (front riser),
Depends on the design, and trim of the canopy.
I'm playing with a newer design right now that seems to react beter with a hard harness turn, than a hard riser turn. Could be the loading, or could be the design.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
***I'm playing with a newer design
Did you bring enough for the rest of the class?
Did you bring enough for the rest of the class?
I beg to differ on your views regarding toggle turns...
Nice skill to know but becoming dependent on snapping a 270 or 180 in front of on coming traffic doesn't show skill to me...
Looks more like someone doesn't know how to hang out up top in half brakes until the pattern has loosened up...
Knowing your canopy is a required skill in this sport, I am just asking to see a general opinion of the population what they use on their final...
I have had great results with front riser input, I recently had someone tell me that harness turns would be better both for the over all swoop and that the canopy would perform better due to the canopy does not distort from the input given from the shifting of the harness...
I wanted to see if others out there in our community had the same impression or if they even cared how the canopy changed as long as it performed...
"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"
Nice skill to know but becoming dependent on snapping a 270 or 180 in front of on coming traffic doesn't show skill to me...
Looks more like someone doesn't know how to hang out up top in half brakes until the pattern has loosened up...
Knowing your canopy is a required skill in this sport, I am just asking to see a general opinion of the population what they use on their final...
I have had great results with front riser input, I recently had someone tell me that harness turns would be better both for the over all swoop and that the canopy would perform better due to the canopy does not distort from the input given from the shifting of the harness...
I wanted to see if others out there in our community had the same impression or if they even cared how the canopy changed as long as it performed...
"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"
PhreeZone 20
>Looks more like someone doesn't know how to hang out up top in half brakes until the pattern has loosened up...
Hehe.. it was more like that I had the option of flying the normal pattern and landing downwind of some buildings known to throw massive rotors or do a clean 180 s toggle carve and be clear. With 10 people on the load and 7 of them on the ground already.. its not traffic thats was an issue. It was a choice to fly the pattern that was the safest for me to land. Plus with neoprene gloves on it makes it really hard to get the hands in the risers and release at the right time with out getting pinched
An effective pilot can use all the inputs to thair max. For the longest time toggle whippers were getting nice long swoops, it came from knowing their canopies.
Most effective form of feed back to how much it effects the canopy other then getting out and flying it a lot is to get a belly cam and look at the canopy as you throw different inputs at altitude and as you land.
Hehe.. it was more like that I had the option of flying the normal pattern and landing downwind of some buildings known to throw massive rotors or do a clean 180 s toggle carve and be clear. With 10 people on the load and 7 of them on the ground already.. its not traffic thats was an issue. It was a choice to fly the pattern that was the safest for me to land. Plus with neoprene gloves on it makes it really hard to get the hands in the risers and release at the right time with out getting pinched
An effective pilot can use all the inputs to thair max. For the longest time toggle whippers were getting nice long swoops, it came from knowing their canopies.
Most effective form of feed back to how much it effects the canopy other then getting out and flying it a lot is to get a belly cam and look at the canopy as you throw different inputs at altitude and as you land.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Belly Cam...
Nice idea, I have checked out what the canopy does when you do different types of input, but off course there is no way to do that while on approach for the landing...
Nice rebuttal, I have seen numerous pilots beat down the group only to show off how well they can "chow"...
Luckily we only have water, tree, roads, and mountains for hazards...
And the occasional newbie who seems to like doing S turns on the final base leg...
It seems now that people are changing up canopies for performance before they completely know the canopy they have.
I have seen this from the strong influence and eye brow raising of canopy pilots today. People figure they simply need to get a better canopy instead of learning all they can from their 190 or 170. Instead they figure on learning on a 120 cross brace.
I figure you need better weather there, that way you won't have to wear neoprene gloves thus allowing you to initiate your safer landing procedure...
Or just do your toggle regardless...
"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"
Nice idea, I have checked out what the canopy does when you do different types of input, but off course there is no way to do that while on approach for the landing...
Nice rebuttal, I have seen numerous pilots beat down the group only to show off how well they can "chow"...
Luckily we only have water, tree, roads, and mountains for hazards...
And the occasional newbie who seems to like doing S turns on the final base leg...
It seems now that people are changing up canopies for performance before they completely know the canopy they have.
I have seen this from the strong influence and eye brow raising of canopy pilots today. People figure they simply need to get a better canopy instead of learning all they can from their 190 or 170. Instead they figure on learning on a 120 cross brace.
I figure you need better weather there, that way you won't have to wear neoprene gloves thus allowing you to initiate your safer landing procedure...
Or just do your toggle regardless...
"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"
I could probably throw a toggle turn if I had to but I would use a front riser, harness or rear riser before I used toggles. (unless it was an emergency brake turn, not a performance landing) It seems to me that it seriously limits the amout of range you have after the turn is made. The jumper has to swing back under the canopy to have any sort of input options.
Just because toggle hookers had good swoops, it doesnt mean it was efficient/safe.
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
Just because toggle hookers had good swoops, it doesnt mean it was efficient/safe.
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
PhreeZone 20
The way I've seen a lot of people on their fornt risers they have to swing under them too. Snap inputs on anything will require you to come out from under the canopy to get full control of the canopy no matter what the initial input. Thats why snap inputs on anything are bad ideas. I can do a toggle carve just as easy as a front riser carve. Its a skill that is useful for still getting nice landings after bailing at 90 degrees through a 180 or more riser dive. Using the toggles I get the rest of the way around to avoid blowing everyones pattern and landing with the wind. Properly done toggle carves provide the same options as riser carves.
People treat toggles with either too much fear, or not enough respect anymore it seems. You've got your people that will still toggle whip landings and then you've got your people that are terrorfied of using toggle inputs down low. Somewhere between those extremes is where you can really expand canopy knowledge and increase your options.
Toggles can be used for more then just flat turns under 150 feet and landing too Ground carves are nothing more then a toggle turn while about 2 feet off the ground and planned out.
Using Rear risers to do HP landing turns is worse then toggles. Throwing large inputs on the rear risers can cause the canopy to stall easy down low.
People treat toggles with either too much fear, or not enough respect anymore it seems. You've got your people that will still toggle whip landings and then you've got your people that are terrorfied of using toggle inputs down low. Somewhere between those extremes is where you can really expand canopy knowledge and increase your options.
Toggles can be used for more then just flat turns under 150 feet and landing too
Ground carves are nothing more then a toggle turn while about 2 feet off the ground and planned out.
Using Rear risers to do HP landing turns is worse then toggles. Throwing large inputs on the rear risers can cause the canopy to stall easy down low.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
I see what you're saying now. I too have used a toggle to come around if I turned to low and needed to make a heading. Kind of like an early carve before total plane out. I had this vision of just yanking a toggle in my head. 
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
jimoke 0
QuoteProperly done toggle carves provide the same options as riser carves.
People treat toggles with either too much fear, or not enough respect anymore it seems. You've got your people that will still toggle whip landings and then you've got your people that are terrorfied of using toggle inputs down low. Somewhere between those extremes is where you can really expand canopy knowledge and increase your options.
Toggles can be used for more then just flat turns under 150 feet and landing too
very nicely put.
I see lots of newer swoopers bad mouthing "toggle monkies"
If you are making a toggle turn on your final approach and you are swinging out from under your parachute......DO NOT apply so much input, you will eventually bounce off the ground. of course it is not a safe manuver. neither is holding your front riser till your in the corner.
using your toggles to land is not taboo. done properly you can still make a safe carving swoop.
land soft,
oke
The ground always, remembers where you are!
murps2000 86
QuoteBut my experiences with my swoops all come from a Xfire 2 loaded 1.6:1, is it possible that higher wing loading increases the harness turn response?
Yes, definitely. But higher airspeed under what you have will increase it as well. Sometime when you're up high, try a hard 270 front riser hook, and as you're coming out of the dive and you're really zipping along, lean one way or the other in the harness. I don't know if you've tried something like this before, but an experienced swooper I know suggested it to me once, and it really opened my eyes to what a harness turn could do.
QuoteI see lots of newer swoopers bad mouthing "toggle monkies"
I've used the term toggle monkey to describe someone who spirals in the pattern, makes S turns and basically flies their canopy by whipping it around inconsiderately.
That is the only context I've heard it used in as well.
Additionally while I don't believe there's anything majorly wrong with doing a toggle turn for a performance landing, techniques have improved and shown that front riser turns are generally a better idea for HP landings. So I believe that regular use of them (toggle HP landings) should be reevaluated.
Blue skies
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team
I have used harness input once I am in the plane out phase of the turn...And usually it is quite responsive...
When I do use this I like to incorporate some nice carving with toggle input, but I am still new to this as well...
"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"
When I do use this I like to incorporate some nice carving with toggle input, but I am still new to this as well...
"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"
Harness sensitivity does increase with wing loading, but using nothing but the harness for your turn seems stupid. It seems like you could get a better result with a more direct input (front riser), and be able to get that result faster, taking up less time and space in the pattern. While this might not be a consideration during a swoop comp., on the everyday landing, traffic considerations play a huge role in your swooping.
A toggle is just another control input. Just like a Velocity is just another canopy. Yes it requires more skill to use properly, and the risks involved may be higher than other options, but it's just another way of doing things.
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