How far can one swoop with different approaches/conditions?

[jerry81 10]

I've decided to post this question after reading Spizzzarko's distance poll, although I'm not sure of its relevance to (my) swoop progression.
I'm interested in some general guidelines on what would be thought as a good or excellent swoop (distance-wise) in no-wind conditions using
- double fronts
- 90° or less carving approach
-180° carve
-270° or more carve
how much further you should be able to get landing in a moderate (say, 5-10 knots) downwind and additionally, how much distance do you gain landing on rear risers. Also, when would be a good time to start learning rear riser landings- before progressing to a more aggressive techique (riser turns) or after mastering all kinds of approaches.

I'm flying an Impulse 135 loaded at approx. 1.6 and have barely started to learn what this canopy can do, so I'll be sticking to straight-in front riser approaches for now. Currently, I'm working on perfecting my flare so the canopy would plane out with as little toggle input as possible and I thought that knowing if my distance was good or not could help with my learning.
Feel free to correct me if I'm thinking in the wrong direction. Canopy coaching is not an option around where I jump (which sucks, because the way things are going, it's probably just a matter of time before someone gets hurt) and while there are people who can offer me some basic advice, none of them come even close to some of those posting in these forums.
Any input will be greatly appreciated. I'm flying at the border of my limits and want to be as safe as possible.

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[grega 0]

I noticed you changed your avatar Cool

Huh i won't say anything cause we can discuss this anytime, so let's se what pro swoopers has to say.

i like the way you're thinking:

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Canopy coaching is not an option around where I jump (which sucks, because the way things are going, it's probably just a matter of time before someone gets hurt)

but unfortunately it's sooo true.

seriousnes off

Wait what about dzouzi, he's a "pro swooper" isn't he, and he has a swooping school

"George just lucky i guess!"

[jerry81 10]

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Wait what about dzouzi, he's a "pro swooper" isn't he, and he has a swooping school

I don't think we give that guy enough credit. After all, being unhurt after so many botched landings is an accomplishment in itself. (this is only meant to illustrate my position better, not hijack the thread)

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[davelepka 4]

The distance info you are looking for won't help you learn to do correct and safe swoops. Winds, pilot, canopy trim, alt. of your landing area, temp., and bar. pressure will all vary the distance of a swoop with a similar approach. A better gauge is the amount of control you exhibit during your swoop.

Canopy coaching is available everywhere. If there is a need, pool some people together, and bring a coach to you. Our DZ brings Scott Miller in from Florida twice every season, and the cost of travel and lodging is worked into the course fees. I'm sure there is a coach somewhere in Europe who would be willing to come a hold a course if you can get enough jumpers interested. Look for a coach who can train basic skils to the beginners, as well as the swoopers, you should be able to get enough people together.

[jerry81 10]

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The distance info you are looking for won't help you learn to do correct and safe swoops. Winds, pilot, canopy trim, alt. of your landing area, temp., and bar. pressure will all vary the distance of a swoop with a similar approach. A better gauge is the amount of control you exhibit during your swoop.

Okay, I was half-expecting something like that. But I may pull off landings where it would seem that I'm in full control when I'm actually on the verge of losing it, so in the end I am the only person who knows exactly how much control I have over the canopy. (Given the lack of good coaches.)

Knowing the approximate distances for different landings could, imo, provide me with an objective method of evaluating my performance...a kind of a safeguard- obviously, I don't want to progress to more aggressive approaches before I feel that I can execute every landing with the same high amount of control, but my feeling could turn out to be incorrect- i.e. I might start with carving approaches and do them safely, but I'd be doing so without first learning how to squeeze the, say, upper 15 percent of performance out of my canopy on double fronts. Does this sound reasonable or am I worrying just a bit too much?

As for coaches...I could try, although I doubt I could get enough people inerested. In two or three years, perhaps, but right now I don't think there's enough interest yet.

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[grega 0]

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you should be able to get enough people together.

Hmm, i don't think so.
Because as far as i know most of the skydivers in our country (the problematic ones) they already think they know too much, so they sure won't pay to learn something they "already know"

Btw Jerry: Count me in for Canopy Piloting coach any time.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[davelepka 4]

***I may pull off landings where it would seem that I'm in full control when I'm actually on the verge of losing it, so in the end I am the only person who knows


Thats the point I was making. Even if you turn too high, and loose some swoop, if you can handle the situation, you're doing good. If you should turn low, and can toggle your way out of it (with control) and have a good landing, that also shows control. Both of these scenarios would produce a less than optimum swoop distance, but would require some skill to achieve.

If you are focused on a certain distance to judge the quality of your swoop (or the skill of the swooper) I think you will be looking in the wrong direction. Distance is a good judge of skill for the pro swoopers, but if you are in a learning progression, distance should be the last thing on your mind.

[grega 0]

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But if you are in a learning progression, distance should be the last thing on your mind.

Hmm first what did you mean by "learning progression"? To learn how to stood up every landing, learn how to fly straight in every swoop, learn how to avoid traps like pulling one toggle down more than the other,... ?
Even pro swoopers are learning all the time,
So everybody is actually in learning progression, it's just that they are at level 50 and we are at 20 for example.

I personally am not focusing on distance. i'm more focusing on accuracy of my landing and to flare the canopy so it actually stops at the end so i don't have to do even one step in no wind conditions.

so far i managed to flare it to a full stop only a couple of times. at the same time lenghts of those "swoops" were also the longest.

Is this what we should be focused on our landing, or is it something completely different?

"George just lucky i guess!"

[jerry81 10]

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But if you are in a learning progression, distance should be the last thing on your mind.

so far i managed to flare it to a full stop only a couple of times. at the same time lenghts of those "swoops" were also the longest.

Is this what we should be focused on our landing, or is it something completely different?

I think control is more than just that or landing accurately every time. We can discuss it saturday morning when we're driving to the dz. (yep, check the forecast

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[grega 0]

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I think control is more than just that or landing accurately every time. We can discuss it saturday morning when we're driving to the dz. (yep, check the forecast

I think i missunderstood you...
It definetely is more than just accuracy, control imo too is what you do through whole your aproach. From when you start the patter, till you are walking away from landing area. (sorry about the grammar)

I was asking what is the sign at landing, that would tell us that we landed better than previously. is it speed, full stop at the end, having more % of the canopy under control,... ?


p.s.: Jerry how are we supposed to have anything under control, we are "No Control" team after all

"George just lucky i guess!"

[davelepka 4]

The flare to a full stop is a good indication of flying the canopy to the end, and it is a good sign of control.

My main point is that however you land, straight in, double fronts, all the way up to 270's (or beyond) the one factor you need to put first is control. If you are not feeling in control, you are in over your head. You need the confidence of being in command of the situation in order to be safe, and perform to your full potential.

For example, I have turned low many times, and I simply apply enough toggle to bring me in line, and finish the swoop. It does take some judgement to realize you are low, and to give enough toggle to just pull out (too little=impact, too much=high speed stall). If you are not in control, feeling fear or other distracting feelings, you will not have your full brain power to deal with the problem.

Of if you are swooping on a no wind day, and you do a 270 that has you swooping further and faster than ever before, are you going to be able to focus on shutting it down? How about if you are swooping so far that a fence you have never considered before becomes an issue, will you be able to take quick and appropriate action? Replace the fence with another jumper walking back to the hanger, you are in the same boat.

Looking at things like distance or speed to judge your swooping is jumping the gun. The context in which the question was asked was using this info to judge the quality of swooping by a beginning swooper. At that stage of swooping. I think that being comfortable with your situation is far more important than speed or distance.

As far as the term 'learning progression ' goes, I was referring to a jumper learning how to swoop, and following a progression such as double fronts to 90's and then to 180's and so on. Yes, the pros are always learning, but they are beyond a progression of any sort. They are refining an established skill. I am not learning how swoop my canopy, I did that 2000 jumps ago. I have no issue landing my canopy from straight in to 360's (or more), up or downwind. I am not learning those skills any more. I am, however, refining them with every jump I make.