What would you choose?

[grega 0]

Which canopy would you choose?
Non-crossbraced (Cobalt competition, stilleto, crossfire 2,...), or Crossbraced (Onyx, Velocity, VX,...) at WL 1.76, if money wouldn't be an issue?

And Why?

"George just lucky i guess!"

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

At what experience level? Nobody who can't fly the absolute piss out of a "traditional" canopy needs to be considering a crossbraced canopy in my, and most other very-experienced skydivers', opinion. Crossbraced canopies are fantastic for the person "who just has to swoop," but are a complete waste of money if you are not flying the canopy at it's limit, in that zone where you can actually get more distance than others under traditional canopies. Buying a crossbraced canopy as a "vanity item" is a very poor decision. That said, if you are completely ripping it up under your current canopy and are ready for that last step, then a crossbraced canopy is that step.

Chuck

[grega 0]

huh i'm deffenitly not flying my canopy at its limits.

it's just that,

Well let's say that santa comes to you and has in one hand cobalt comp. 120 and in other onyx 120.

You load both canopies at 1.76, and you're definitely not ripping up your current canopy, which is 120 sq. feet 9 cell elliptical with same WL 1.76.
Which one would you take?

What am i supposed to say "No thank you santa, i'll keep my old canopy"

"George just lucky i guess!"

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

a 120 is a very large crossbraced canopy. If you are saying that you are contemplating trading a 120 standard canopy for a 120 crossbrace, then I hope your container has a LOT of free space in it. Crossbraced canopies pack substantially larger and at the same wingload will probably not show you any tangible performance gains. This, in my opinion, is a perfect example of buying a crossbraced canopy for all the wrong reasons. Still, it's your money, brother. As you are not downsizing at all, I can't give you any strong safety arguments that would get me to talk you out of it on that basis.

Chuck

[AndyMan 7]

If your profile is correct, and you indeed have 450 jumps, I would be choosing the non-crossbraced one.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[BMFin 0]

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If your profile is correct, and you indeed have 450 jumps, I would be choosing the non-crossbraced one.

_Am

Does the fact that the canopy is crossbraced make it somehow more dangerous ?? (they would both be loaded the same)

[AndyMan 7]

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Does the fact that the canopy is crossbraced make it somehow more dangerous ??

Sure. On a cross-braced canopy, you tend to lose a lot of "digability" - once you're commited to a low turn you lose some ability to dig out of it. Also, the trim tends to be steeper so you dive quicker, again- reducing your outs. They seem to spin up at a higher frequency then other elipticals... at least at my DZ.

My biggest objection though at this point is not safety - its' just wether its a wise choice or not. The biggest advantage to going crossbraced is not the steeper trim or the dive, it's simply its ability to withstand higher wingloads.

I presume, at 450 jumps you're not jumping at a wingloading that would take advantage of the crossbracing.

If you're looking for the trim, and the diving characteristics at a 1.4 - 1.8 wingloading, and insist on having something that dives like a bitch, then try something like the Big Air Sportz Samurai. Not only will it be a lot cheaper, but you'll actually be flying the canopy at a wingloading it was designed for.

That said, I've not jumped a crossbraced, because I'm a fatass and they don't make one at a wingloading I'd be comfortable jumping.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[grega 0]

Thanks for the tips.

So i realy wouldn't benefit in anything but larger pack volume, if i'd get a crossbraced.
About the diving, i think i already have a canopy that dives pretty much (cobalt comp.) for my liking. And it's not the diving i wanted (well maybe a little). But i wanted to hear if i'd benefit in anything else at all, guess not.

One more question.

Are there any things, maneuvers,... that i'd easily learn on normal 9 cell canopy?
I mean, for example. it's a lot easier and safer to start learning swooping on big canopies, and small WingLoadings at slow (more or less) speeds.

Is there anything at all that is easier and safer to learn on normal 9 cell canopies than on crossbraced canopies?

Thanks

"George just lucky i guess!"

[ianmdrennan 2]

Andy,

I can't say I really agree with you. For the sake of argument lets use the CF2, Stiletto and a xbrace for examples.

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Sure. On a cross-braced canopy, you tend to lose a lot of "digability" - once you're commited to a low turn you lose some ability to dig out of it.

Little difference between a xfire low turn and a xbrace low turn here. Both canopies have a long recovery arc. Both would have similar "digging" power (at the loadings discussed). If I had to guess, I'd say the xbrace would have more as it is a more rigid wing.

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They seem to spin up at a higher frequency then other elipticals... at least at my DZ.

Xbraces are a LOT less tapered than a Stiletto, for example. Just like any tapered canopy they have the potential for a "death spiral", but I've had one chop on my heatwave due to line twists and none (touch wood) because of the twisties on my Velocity. I found kicking out of a spinning canopy much easier on the velo and it's significantly smaller than my heatwave was. Can't comment of the xfire - never spun one up

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If you're looking for the trim, and the diving characteristics at a 1.4 - 1.8 wingloading, and insist on having something that dives like a bitch, then try something like the Big Air Sportz Samurai.

Or the xfire2, but it really depends what you want to get out of the canopy, where you are skill wise, and what your canopy goals are.

I personally agree that there's NO NEED whatsoever to go xbraced unless you're going for that extra bit of performance though, and below 1.8 I think there are better canopies out there.

Just my 2cents.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Are there any things, maneuvers,... that i'd easily learn on normal 9 cell canopy?

Besides the usual (flat turns, etc). I'd highly recommend learning high speed flat turns. Very useful if you absolutely HAVE to complete a turn and you know you are too low to do so and have already begun a high speed approach. It's hard to explain in text, but it's pretty much a carving turn.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ManBird 0]

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Well let's say that santa comes to you and has in one hand cobalt comp. 120 and in other onyx 120.

As to the poll, I'd stick with non-cross-braced. Specifically a Crossfire 2.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[FreeFlyFridge 0]

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I personally agree that there's NO NEED whatsoever to go xbraced unless you're going for that extra bit of performance though, and below 1.8 I think there are better canopies out there.

Just curious.
From what wingload on would you (or anyone else) suggest to get a crossbraced canopy? Assuming that you have the profound technique of flying skill, off course.
If you read (i.e.) the PD weight charts for a Velocity 120, they start at 156lbs. for an "advanced" (wl @ 1,3) and 228lbs. for an "expert" (wl @ 1.9), and the max. is 264lbs. (wl @ 2.2). And as far as I know is the sweet spot for that canopy is around wl @ 2.
Would the difference between, lets say, a xfire2 120 and a Velocity 120 (both loaded @ 1.9) be that big? Besides the steeper glide and maybe a little more dive on the Velocity?
As I said, just curious. And if I´m in the wrong place with my question I´m sorry!
My first post in this forum, BTW, I hope i got that quote thing right, and sorry for my english, i´m german and have only my "school" english from a little while ago!
Ride On & Blues
Jens

------------------------------------------------------
ROCK ON,.....HARD!
Proud European!!

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Just curious.
From what wingload on would you (or anyone else) suggest to get a crossbraced canopy? Assuming that you have the profound technique of flying skill, off course.

I'd suggest when loading a non xbraced canopy(and no alternatives are available anymore) at the same loading starts declining in performance.

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If you read (i.e.) the PD weight charts for a Velocity 120, they start at 156lbs. for an "advanced" (wl @ 1,3) and 228lbs. for an "expert" (wl @ 1.9), and the max. is 264lbs. (wl @ 2.2). And as far as I know is the sweet spot for that canopy is around wl @ 2.

I've had my best swoops loading a velocity 90 between high 2.2 and low 2.3
There's nothing saying you can't jump a velo @ 1.3, it's just there there's little to no difference if you were to jump a xf2 at the same loading IMO. So why bother with the xbrace and extra cost?

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Would the difference between a, lets say, xfire2 120 and a Velocity 120 both loaded @ 1.9 that big? Besides the steeper glide and maybe a little more dive on the Velocity?

Well I believe the xf2 maxes out around 1.8 so you'd get better lift at the end of the surf from the velocity.

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Would the difference between a, lets say, xfire2 120 and a Velocity 120 both loaded @ 1.9 that big? Besides the steeper glide and maybe a little more dive on the Velocity?

Welcome to the forums, and yes, you got the quote thing right
Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[FreeFlyFridge 0]

Ok,here´s why I postet. I´m right now at that point where i´d have to decide which way to go, xbraced or not?!
I´ve jumped stilettos, vengeance and xfires for a while now with wl @ 1.7-1.8. Now I am thinking about getting a non xbraced canopy with a wl around 1.9, wich would be a 120, but the only canopy that has it´s sweet spot around that wl is the xfire2 and maybe the Katana. Sorry forgot the Cobalt and Samurai, but it´s not in the race for me, but not for any special reason, don´t want to say it´s not a good canopy though! And they´re hard to get and hardly seen on dz´s here in Germany.
My choice would now be either the xfire2 (or Katana), because I think it´s just marginal below the performance of a xbraced, or something like a Velocity or a Xaos21.
And the price isn´t really that big of a deal, I know dealers that offer the xbraced canopies at nearly the same price as an xfire2, and pack volume would´nt be an issue, my container is big enough.
So, the question is, are there any safety reasons you would mention or special flying skills that I need under a Xbraced canopy, other than with a similar loaded non xbraced?

Ride On & Blues
Jens

------------------------------------------------------
ROCK ON,.....HARD!
Proud European!!

[marks 0]

how many jumps do you have now and how many jumps do you have at the 1.7-1.8 wingloading and what type of canopy was it?

[FreeFlyFridge 0]

Ok, I´ve got about 600 jumps in total, 300 of this year. The first 250 jumps were under a Spectre 150 (wl @ 1.53) the other 300 from this year started out with the Spectre (about 50) then for
- about 70 jumps a stiletto 135
- about 100 jumps avengeance 135
- about 30 jumps a vengeance 120
- about 100 jumps with a xfire 129
Don´t get me by the exact number, i didnt look it up in my pro-track.
But these are roughly the numbers.
And we´re talking bout getting the canopy in the beginning/mid of next season, so you can add roughly about 100-150 more jumps on the total numbers.

Ride On & Blues!
Jens

------------------------------------------------------
ROCK ON,.....HARD!
Proud European!!

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Profile says just a bit more than 300. That said, I don't think the original poster has any business jumping a crossbraced canopy. For that matter, I don't think he has any business jumping any canopy at the wingload he states he is currently jumping. Call me a prude, but I still live by the adage that you ought to read the damn placard. You know, the one that says "don't jump this crossbraced canopy until you have 1000 jumps on an elliptical main."

Chuck

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

OK, judging by your new numbers I am seeing that you have 300 jumps under an elliptical main. It looks like you have not really given yourself the opportunity to fully exploit any of the last three mains which you have owned. While I am not really too concerned about a 1.8 wingload, it is about two points above what most dropzones consider their maximum for your experience.

Chuck

[FreeFlyFridge 0]

Ok, got me there, i should update the my profile again, sorry.
By the way, I do agree that a jumper with 300 jumps or so should not consider a xbraced canopy, period.
The thing with the changing canopies is that I do not own one myself, I´ve just been lucky and could jump demos and canopies from friends, for that reason i haven´t made all the jumps on each canopy in a row, unfortunately.
But at least I found that I liked the xfire2 the best from them and was considering to buy 119 or a 124.
But now i´m just wondering what would be different from a Velocity120?
I talked to a lot of different people here at my dz (ampfing), which is a dz with very good hp pilots and swoop competitors, i would call most of them my friends and some were my instructors in aff, so I think they try to educate me in the best way they can and have always a look after me and my developing flying skills.
I am not an very aggressive flyer, and i would rather bail out of a swoop than getting into a foreseeable unsafe or somehow scary situation.
As I said the guys at my dz now me and the rigger, which is again a very good canopy pilot, and the dz owner/manger there wouldn´t hesitate to let me jump a canopy @ 1.9. But they also say, that´s my momentary limit and i shouldn´t go any higher, for my own safety and the safety of all the people around me in the air, what I accept and see the same way.

Ride On & Blues!
Jens

P.S.: Please, Chuck you can call me by my name Jens or FreeFlyFridge.You don´t need to use a phrase like "the original poster". Thank´s. I hope it´s ok that I call you chuck even if we don´t now each other. No offense!

------------------------------------------------------
ROCK ON,.....HARD!
Proud European!!

[ccowden 0]

If you are asking other people if you should go crossbraced, you probably are not ready. The only time to go crossbraced is when you have been jumping a high performance 9 cell and have pretty much mastered it. ie: 180 hook turns, carving front riser turns, rear riser landings, etc. If you are not going to fly a crossbraced canopy the way it was designed to fly- hard front riser turns to final into a hard dive and fast aggressive landings- then there is absolutely no reason to fly one. You better be on top of your game and ready for the challenges of flying a canopy of that caliber at those limits. A mistake can kill you. I just lost my best friend to a mistake. He WAS ready for a crossbraced but he also made a mistake that cost his life. Even the best F 18 pilot in the world cna be killed if he makes a mistake. That is not to ssay he wasn't capable of handling the F 18. But that is the risk involved. Make sure you are ready!

[marks 0]

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Ok, got me there, i should update the my profile again, sorry.
By the way, I do agree that a jumper with 300 jumps or so should not consider a xbraced canopy, period.
The thing with the changing canopies is that I do not own one myself, I´ve just been lucky and could jump demos and canopies from friends, for that reason i haven´t made all the jumps on each canopy in a row, unfortunately.
But at least I found that I liked the xfire2 the best from them and was considering to buy 119 or a 124.
But now i´m just wondering what would be different from a Velocity120?
I talked to a lot of different people here at my dz (ampfing), which is a dz with very good hp pilots and swoop competitors, i would call most of them my friends and some were my instructors in aff, so I think they try to educate me in the best way they can and have always a look after me and my developing flying skills.
I am not an very aggressive flyer, and i would rather bail out of a swoop than getting into a foreseeable unsafe or somehow scary situation.
As I said the guys at my dz now me and the rigger, which is again a very good canopy pilot, and the dz owner/manger there wouldn´t hesitate to let me jump a canopy @ 1.9. But they also say, that´s my momentary limit and i shouldn´t go any higher, for my own safety and the safety of all the people around me in the air, what I accept and see the same way.

Ride On & Blues!
Jens

P.S.: Please, Chuck you can call me by my name Jens or FreeFlyFridge.You don´t need to use a phrase like "the original poster". Thank´s. I hope it´s ok that I call you chuck even if we don´t now each other. No offense!

call him chuckie if your gunna use the name...

anyways.. i think you will get better performance out of a crossfire 2 @ 1.75-1.8 ithink your wasin your money going any higher than that....

when i went up from 1.8 i went to 2.0 onto a crossbraced... it was an easy transition and i was ready for it.....

i think if you spend one more year in that wing loading area..... 1.8 max... you will be a better pilot for it the following year when your ready to go to 2.0.....

you say your not aggressive canopy pilot..... then why do you want the high wing loading?

im suspecting you are a agressive pilot who is still working on your skill before you get too aggressive.....

if that is the case then stick with the max of 1.8 on a crossfire 2.. trust me... that canopy can swoop at that wing loading.. then spen about 1 year with it... 300-500 jumps...... then goto a crossbraced at 2.0....

if you do it that way you will be amazed how easy the transition is and you will also be impressed at what that crossbraced at 2.0 can do compared to the crossfire at 1.8... but you will be ready for it then.,....

hope this helps any...

mark

[FreeFlyFridge 0]

Thank you chris for your honest reply.
i see your point and I think you´re right.
I do 180 and 270 carving front riser approaches with all the canopies I mentioned quite precise and without hitting the ground harder than I wanted for the last 250 jumps (no rear riser landings, yet and no hooks, they seem more dangerous to me), but still you´re right, if I have to think about going xbraced or not it´s maybe a little too early to do so, one should feel ready for it and then start thinking about it.
I feel very safe and aware under canopy and during landing, but as you say, maybe even a small mistake may be the last one you do.
So, in the near future I don´t see myself under a xbraced canopy. I think i can still learn a lot under a hp elliptical a little more docile.

But the question I still do ask is the difference between a hp elliptical @ 1.9 and a xbraced 21cell loaded at 1.9!
Any opinions? Just facts, and remember I´m just curious and don´t want to go xbraced!
Any testpilots out there?

Ride On & Blues!
Jens

P.S. Maybe I should start an own thread?!
And Chris, my condolence! One can see that it must have been a dear friend of yours.

------------------------------------------------------
ROCK ON,.....HARD!
Proud European!!

[FreeFlyFridge 0]

Thanks Mark that helps a lot!
I think I´ll stay with that wl around 1.8 at least for the next year and going to try as hard as I can to get my skills as polished up as possible.
Ok saying I´m not a aggressive pilot was a little understated, i try to stay within my abilities but try to push my limits alittle every time, that would get the point. but i don´t want to be too aggressive, I think that is dangerous for yourself but even more so for everybody around you, which is even worse!

But I still have that question.
The difference between xbraced @ 1.9 and hp elliptical @ 1.9?
Maybe I should wait another year and see for myself then!

Ride on & Blues!
Jens

------------------------------------------------------
ROCK ON,.....HARD!
Proud European!!

[marks 0]

well a crossbraced at 1.9 is going to go farther across the ground. it is going to dive at the ground a little more. it is going to FEEL bigger than a 1.9 wingloading...(this depends on who you talk to) but ive found it to be somwhat tru. also it will seem to slice through turbulance a little bettter than a non crossbraced. also they seem to have a little to a lot more shutdown power at the end of the surf....

i think you should stick with 1.8 or less... and since that is the case then you should stick to a non crossbraced canopy...

if you going to go higher than 1.8 then i would get a crossbraced...

but then again... thats me.....

but me wouldnt go above 1.8 with the skill leval that you have...

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Shimell gave some good advice. The bottom line here is there is absolutely no reason to race to smaller canopies with higher wingloads if you can't already FULLY exploit the canopy you currently have. Vanity kills....pure and simple in the realm of HP canopy flight.

Jens, if you don't want to buy a crossbraced canopy, then why all the questions? If you are truly wanting to know what the difference in feel is, then see if you can get a demo in the same wingloading you are currently jumping. It's my guess that you won't like what you feel, but I might be completely wrong; everyone is different. I do know several people who jump the largest size performance mains, both "standard" and crossbraced, and neither of those guys dog their parachutes either, but "just had to have" them. Hey, whatever. Personally, I think if you are not going to put the canopy to the test, then you would be better off with a completely different tool for the job. A perfect example are my two canopies. I jump a Velocity 79 as my swoop main, but jump a Sabre2 97 as my wingsuit/ general purpose main. What the hell do I need to jump my Velo in a wingsuit for? I still swoop the piss out of that Sabre2, but it doesn't require ALL of my attention like my Velo does. Not sure if that makes any sense to you, but I think my point is that when I jump my Velocity, I am "turned on" completely and do everything in my power to wring every little sniblit of performance out of it; that's what it's designed for.

Peace,
Chuckie