Initiating high performance landing with toggles?

[Hazarrd 1]

Lately I have been doing some experimenting with turning at a lower altitude before my landings. I have been getting nice swoops out of it. However, I am using my toggles, no my dive loops on the front risers. Am I right in assuming that doing this is similiar to doing a front riser turn however it just is not as effective and thus you dont gain as much speed? Is there anything I should be careful with when doing this? Would it be better to just use the front risers? I took a canopy control class with scott miller in which we went over high speed approaches. however, i wasn't interested in doing them at the time. any response is appreciated, thanks!

.-.

[trigger 0]

Generally,initiating a turn to final with toggles as opposed to front risers is considerred a No No!
Should you find yourself in the corner,you'll need the toggles to'dig yourself out'
V.hard for m e to explain what happens to a canopy[or so i'vr been told]after a toggle turn has been initiated,but it goes something like,you initially lose some of that all important flare power[should you need it].
I strongly suggest that as i suspect this is your first foray into swooping,you find yourself a mentor and preferably attend a course.
Bottom line "Front risers are the way to go"

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[jumperconway 0]

OH SHIT! Another 100 jump incident about to happen!

[Hazarrd 1]

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OH SHIT! Another 100 jump incident about to happen!

wow, thanks for constructive feedback

.-.

[jumperconway 0]

Sorry but at 100 jumps, you don't even understand your canopy unless you did those 100 in a month with expert supervision and debriefing after EVERY ONE. You should have atleast a few hundred more before contemplating HP landings. In other words wait for your brain to catch up with your stones! And I'm a lot nicer than what you're fix'n to hear!
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I don't suspect that anyone giving a canopy control class is going to give a 100 jump wonder a lot of info on HP landings. PD's site has valuble info on HP landings, some save your ass strategies before you and your canopy meet Mother Earth at the same time! Read it.

[hookitt 1]

Go vist one of the local swoopmonsters and have them explain the way to work up to front riser approaches. If they say don't do hook turns, tell them you are going to learn any way, so teach me how to begin. Learning to swoop begins with double front riser approaches.

Stop using your toggles to increase speed for landing. Sorry, I don't have time right now to explain why.

Good luck

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[davelepka 4]

Thats the best feedback you can get to your question. You really need to focus on your straight in landings for another 150 or 200 jumps. THEN, you need to take a canpoy control course (geared toward swooping), THEN you can start trying to swoop.


You just don't have the expereince to handle HP landings, and the variety of unique situations that can arise in doing such landings. And, no, I don't care how good you think your are, or how 'in control' you may think you are.

Slow down, do it the right way, and keep yourself in one piece.

[trigger 0]

What jumperconway is saying is right.i.e master slow flight techniques first esp flat turns,flare turns etc.Ideally you want the"Swoop" survival skills well honed before you actually contemplate "Swooping"

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[nicknitro71 0]

The short answer is this:

After you stop a turn initiated with the toggles the canopy will accelerate and you will be swung forward.

During a front riser turn, the canopy will build up speed but when it stops turning it will decellerate. There is also no pendulum effect.

So if you fuck up a toggle turn you have less margin to fix the problem than a front riser turn.

Bottom line is this: below 1000 feet don't use your toggles to build up speed for a HP landing.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[trigger 0]

!!!!!!!!!!THANKS!!!!!!!!!!

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[hookitt 1]

It's Human Nature to want to swoop. It's fun so telling some one not to do it is the wrong way to deal with it.

100 jumps is not a bad time to begin learning. All that other stuff that was mentioned needs to happen too but learning front riser approaches can begin soon.

Get some instruction on how to start practicing. ONce you get some drills to play with up high, you can start bringing it closer to the ground. Just be patient... Please. It's easier than you think to frap yourself into the ground at high rates of bone breaking speed.

Good luck

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hey Hazz,

Well, what the others have said here is correct. There is a lot more that you should be focusing on before the actual HP landing itself, many of the exercises are up high (above 2k). There is a long list of things to start working on that will make the HP landings safer and better when you finally get around to doing them.

next time you're in jumptown, look me up and we can spend time going over them.

Something I'd like to point out though:

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Would it be better to just use the front risers?

Generally yes that is a better HP technique, but without dive loops I'd be cautious in grabbing front risers, it'd be much easier to drop a toggle (There are techniques I can show you with dive loops to minimize this risk).

For now, I'd start with (above 2k in clear airspace), yanking down that front riser (if you drop 'em up high it's no biggie) or toggle and practising "saving yourself". What I mean by that is pretend you're low, low enough to die, and you have to flare like a mofo to survive. Try and "feel" what your canopy is doing, feel the pressure, listen to the wind....yadda yadda (too much to cover in text). Just take it easy and seek advice from knowledgable people who can watch your landings.

Learning to swoop is a slow process so don't rush into things.

Blue skies. Look me up next time you're in town and we can spend time going over this.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Hazarrd 1]

Thanks Ian

.-.

[jumperconway 0]

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The short answer is this:
During a front riser turn, the canopy will build up speed but when it stops turning it will decellerate. There is also no pendulum effect.

I'm not sure how you do front riser turns but I get a LOT of pendulum effect in my hooks!

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[jumperconway 0]

Thank's Hook,
That was a first. Surprised you haven't chimed in yet.

[PhreeZone 20]

There are generally two methods to a front riser approach. One involves a rapid pulling of one riser and is a snap hook, the other is a very gentle carving in which slow but steady pressure is applied all the way through the carve. The Snap hook has a lot of pendlium and the carve generally does'nt have as much.

Jury is still out on which method is the longer or faster one. I've seen both methods result in great swoops, and I've seen both result in ones that would have been just as well off on a straight in approach.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Just thought i'd toss you the link the hp landing info on pd's website:: http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/flylnd.pdf

Happy swooping:)
Angela.

[Hazarrd 1]

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Just thought i'd toss you the link the hp landing info on pd's website:: http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/flylnd.pdf

Happy swooping:)
Angela.

awesome information. thanks.

.-.

[garywainwright 0]

Try this.
do a fairly aggressive front riser 180 (above 1500 ft) and see how you feel in the harness. You should still feel heavy in the harness, all your lines are still under tension.

Now do a 180 toggle turn (above 1500 ft). You will probably feel light in the harness. Your lines aren't under as much tension and if you need to flare now (to dig out of the corner) it won't be as efficient.

This is not to say that you can't hurt yourself doing a riser turn though! Its just that if you are too low you will have a better chance of saving yourself.

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

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[rigging65 0]

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Now do a 180 toggle turn (above 1500 ft). You will probably feel light in the harness. Your lines aren't under as much tension and if you need to flare now (to dig out of the corner) it won't be as efficient.

Keep in mind, this doesn't necessarily apply to carving toggle turns. A slow carve (which builds up more speed anyway) will keep your lines tight and keep you under the canopy regardless of how it's initiated.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."