Comp Cobalt to be delivered today!!!!

[Brains 2]

Quote

so how are they packing these cobalts to be able to deploy in sits and HD? (their promotional video)

DON'T do that. One of my friends deployed his cobalt head down and his ff partner got it on video. I can promise you he wouldn't do it again. And yes, he is an Atair pilot.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[roq 0]

I have hundreds of jumps with cobalt and Impulse with high load more that 2, and never had one hard opening! I had only one cut-away because incidental unstowed toggle when had line twists.
One of my friend with about 250 jumps made the skysurf course with Atair Impulse 150 low load with no problems (Impulse is equal to cobalt with only diference is normal 1 panel in top skin instead two like cobalt) , and I saw one jump that he opened in face to sky when he had one incidental pilot chute opening. In final the skysurf course he he didn't know that had jumped with elliptic canopy. He thought that was one square canopy.
The impulse 150 was packed always for one good packer of DZ
With cobalt you only need to have taken care with packing, and body position in opening when high load.
Have many cut-aways with cobalts because the cobalt is very atractive canopy for jumpers with low experience and bad packers. Like had many cut-aways with stilettos and others for same reasons

Roq

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

I pay very little attention to the pack jobs (shake it, wrap it, and bag it). I also open in a variety of speeds and body positions, and still no troubles.

I believe that one should be able to pack any canopy quickly, as you've described. That the Cobalt requiers careful packing, a smaller than normal (stock on most rigs) pilot chute, and according to Atair, perfect body position, just isn't right.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[davelepka 4]

10-4 good buddy.

Maybe Atair should ship the demos with a pilot chute of the reccomended size. Oh, wait, before they do that, maybe they could ship the demos on risers.

Risers too expensive? How about a chunk of cardboard with six holes in it so the line groups and steering lines don't become tangled/flipped/twisted or whatever.

Cardboard too expensive? Must be.....


Just to be fair, I was impressed that the diamonds were actually sewn into the bottom skin. I was expecting them to be applied over top of the bottom skin.

[cobaltdan 0]

to clarify:

when we introduced the cobalt we tested and certified it to far higher speeds than any other canopy at the time. at 120mph any canopy from, 170sq' down does not need a larger pilot than a 24". in testing with dataloggers and load links to measure force vs time on opening we discovered that at higher speeds oversized pilots (as many rig manufacturers provide) make a huge difference in the peak force. i have seen stock rigs supplied with pilots from 28-32". if you are freeflying this is a mistake. we have jumped and recorded openings on cobalts at speeds up to 256 mph and with pilot chutes from 18" to 32" (every 2"). for maximum safety to freeflyers you should not use more than a 24" pilot with our canopies (and others).

packing: nothing special: simply push nose to back and roll tail tight.

body position: (i always deploy in a track) harness fly through opening and do not touch your risers.

grabing your risers is a bad habit most of us get into from being beginers jumping slamers. pressure on the rear risers will cause the canopy to open quickly and grabing your risers will put uneven pressure on them during deployment. this may be unnoticable at light wing loadings but will become more of an issue at higher wing loadings. balancing with your hands is not instintual, balancing with your hips/body to fly an opening will become instintual.

as far as hard opening cobalts all i can say is that the instance is rare. as we advertise high speed openings, we are generally held to a higher standard than other companies, and out of the thousands we have produced i can count the number of canopies returned for hard openings on my fingers.

sincerely,

daniel preston
atair aerodynamics
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

as far as hard opening cobalts all i can say is that the instance is rare.

But Dan, they're not that rare. If they were, there wouldn't see as many people as there are complaining about them. Right?

Why can't you make the Cobalt have those sweet two stage openings ALL the time? Why the need for the smaller pilot chute, the careful pack jobs, the perfect body position? My Crossfire2 opens like a DREAM, every time. I've packed that thing carefully, quickly, badly, slowly, had at least 10 different packers take a shot at it, that canopy opens like butter, every time. No special equipment, no special attention to packing, no special attention to body position. Why can't the Cobalt open like my CF?


-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[rgoper 0]

i can count at least one you've had returned for constant missbehaviour on deployment. everything from line twists to end cell closure. i did my research on this canopy before i bought it, all i ever got from you guys was "body position" at deployment time. c'mon now, that's getting old. when this canopy flew well it flew well, but when it didn't it made my life hell. i was half scared to pull, not knowing which malfunction i'd be dealing with next. and Dan, it does make a difference how you pack the thing. i'll agree the best opening i got was in a track at 172 mph (pro-trac) but when i would deploy in belly to earth, it was totally unpredictable.

the reason i'm addressing this now is to bring to your attention to stop making excuses and fix the canopy, i still miss my made to order custom colored canopy with the red diamonds. let's see, you guys kept my canopy, what, 9 months, 10 months and i was promised a competition 170^2 canopy and it never happened. thank god i have a fairly decent job where i could affored a new canopy. by the way, i bought a PISA HeatWave 170^2, i have yet to be dissapointed. nothing odd nothing peculuer don't need to do anything fancy at deployment time.....coincidence? canopy pilot? i use the same 24" jim cazer pc i bought for my Cobalt, the only difference is the HeatWave works and the Cobalt didn't. because the HeatWave hasn't acted wierd mean i got better at deployment time? or does it mean PISA has a better canopy? i'm in question mode here. fix your canopy, quit making excuses for it, and return your phone calls.

ready, set...go!

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[diablopilot 2]

Making up some partly line gossip about your canopies in order to sell them is B.S.

Quote

we tested and certified it to far higher speeds than any other canopy at the time.

Certified how, to what established standards? I can say I have wetter water than you in my glass, but what does that mean? Certainly you are not suggesting you've applied TSO standards to your canopies?

Quote

we have jumped and recorded openings on cobalts at speeds up to 256 mph and with pilot chutes from 18" to 32" (every 2"). for maximum safety to freeflyers you should not use more than a 24" pilot with our canopies (and others).

Time and time again you've said your canopies are able to survive high speed and weight openings.

Great.

Now you're going to lul the new generation of jumper who doesn't know any better into believing ALL of their gear is capable of that.

So what happens when one of your magical, soft opening canopies gets that slammer opening that ALL canopies are prone to in their life time, only your jumper is doing 160+mph, instead of a more sensible 110mph?

You're gonna break them.

Small pilot chutes increase the possibility of a P/C in tow scenario, and you want people to go smaller?

You have some interesting claims about your products, and some of what you market is based on fact I will admit.

But for the welfare of the sport your advertising is a bad thing. As a sport we are pushing the edge all the time, we don't need sensationalisim egging on impressionable jumpers without the necessary experience to make sound decisions.

You have advertised your product to be the right thing for jumpers from novice to expert.

B.S. Plain and simple.

Quote

grabing your risers is a bad habit

Bullshit. It's a survival skill.

If you believe your statement above, I believe you've never been on a jump with more than 4 people.

Quote

grabing your risers will put uneven pressure on them during deployment

Maybe if you're some sort of gimp.


I am sorry I have let your rhetoric irk me so much as to dignify it with a response.

Quote

and out of the thousands we have produced

Let me know when you've built more than a handful of canopies. If you're science is so sound, why don't you put your reputation where your mouth is and produce a reserve. I won't own a main from a manufacturer that doesn't produce one.

You product is flawed and so are your buisiness practices.

You'll send demos to jumpers that are not qualified.
You don't research a jumpers experience before the sale.
You tell people what they want to hear.

The worst part is not the fact you're talking them out of their money, but you're breaking down their trust in the people that are looking out for their well being.

True that every jumper is responsible for their own actions, but you needent help them along to the grave.

Disgusted.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[davelepka 4]

Thanks for responding to this thread.

My openings on the Cobalt were not "hard". They were quick, too quick. Just for reference, I'm busy removing swoop cords and turning off cameras during the opening, I couldn't grab the risers if I wanted to.

I have no problem flying the harness during the opening. The opeings I had were so quick, it was a non-issue. When jumping the 96 Velocity, I often use the harness to direct myself toward the DZ during the snivel so by the time the slider comes down, I'm headed home.

Care to comment on the demo situation? My demo was extremely late, and relpies to my communications were non-existent. When it did arrive it was without risers, and the links were not on a card of any kind. If I didn't happen to have an extra set of risers, and the know-how to untangle and hook it up, my rigger would have been in for alot of work. First disconnecting my canopy from my risers, hooking your up, and vise versa at the end of the weekend.

As far as the pilot chute situation goes, you do realize that you are recomending a pilot chute that is typically smaller than the spandex pouch was designed for. You openly admit that most containers are shipped (and designed) for 28 to 32", but you reccomend using a smaller one. For the record I use a 24" with the correct, smaller, pouch.

Lets face it, rigs were built around the concept of face to earth deployment. Advertising your canopies as capable of opening at higher speeds (along with the photo sequence of such you printed in the magazine) is bound to encourage someone to do just that, again, outside the design parameters of the container, and outside the safe operating parameters of the reserve (yes the reserve may be able to take the load, but the jumper will feel differently).

I have a great deal of respect for anyone who can bring a canopy to market, but wouldn't it be wiser to design a product the works within the standard parameters of skydiving i.e., falling straight down, with stock pilot chutes and at regular speeds.

Look at the electric car situation. It's a good idea, that many people would be interested in for it's environmental merit. But with the short range, and insufficient number charging stations, it's not a practical solution to the problem at hand.

[cobaltdan 0]

jp,

yes your post does come off as a personal attack.

the cobalt was tested in 543 datalogged jumps. force vs time measurements were made with sensors on all risers, in addition to triaxial accelerometers, barometric & gps. see: http://extremefly.com/aerospace/DAS/dataloggers/
http://extremefly.com/aerospace/DAS/sensors/

i can safely say it is the most extensively tested canopy ever made and yes it is tested far in excess of tso requirements. it greatly exceeds requirements to be certified as a reserve. and yes we do manufacture reserves (under german tso) both skydiving & paragliding in fact more reserves than mains and in fact possibly more than any other company in europe.

i broke my c6 on deployment with a saber 135 as have many people. premature deployments happen, if you freefly deployments above 120 happen. if you are going to freefly you should want a canopy that reduces the risk of injury in a high speed deployment by being designed for softer openings at high speed. the cobalt was the first and only canopy designed and tested to do so. we are not lulling anyone into a false sense of security just the opposite.

ps. if your reply has the same tone as your original post do not expect a reply.

sincerely,

daniel preston
atair aerodynamics
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[ypelchat 0]

By reading this entire thread, it is my understanding that the Cobalt was developped specifically to adress the needs of todays freeflyers. So logically, a freeflyer should the get the proper equipment to go with the Cobalt... If the required equipment do not exist, then we have a problem. Today's containers are developped and certified (TSO'd) with specific parameters. Dunno if a 256mph opening is within the TSO parameters though! But my guess is no.

Who would likely to survive a 256mph opening?

Am I right to think this way.



Yves.

[cobaltdan 0]

the canopy is designed to reduce risk of injury at freefly speeds. 256 is the max we have tested to but is definately an endorsement to go fun deploy over 170. we have found that above 184 collapsable pilot chutes do not always collapse properly and can cause a very high peak force on line stretch.

sincerely,

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[PhreeZone 20]

I think you might want to ask one of your sponsored pilots in TX if he wants to deploy HD again. After hearing his story I vowed not to even attempt it ever on any main.

I think he even lurks DZ.com so I might have to beg him to get him to post his story of a HD opening on his Cobalt.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[TALONSKY 0]

Hi Dan:
I would like to thank you for responding to this thread. I find it very intriguing that you have to deploy your canopies in a track. I mean “maybe” your canopy is designed for high-speed openings but I do not understand why that would make it susceptible to hard openings if not deployed a very specific manner.
It seems in several ways what you state about your canopy is very contradicting. One it can be opened in a head down position (but you need to pull in a track belly to earth). Second this fully elliptical canopy it great for beginners up to expert swoopers (I find it hard to believe that your product is sooo great that it fly’s great for expert swoopers but is not susceptible to the high speed malfunctions associated with all elliptical canopies). I personally find it unconscionable to sell a fully elliptical canopy to a beginner. To be honest it is this obvious contradiction which has kept me from ever trying or buying your product.
As for the comment on the handful of hard opening Cobalt’s out there, I think if you look back at threads on this site you will find more often than not (which means a lot more than just 10 canopies) your customers have been complaining about hard openings.
Kirk

[cobaltdan 0]

kirk,

your mentioned points are not contradicting:

there is little difference between head down and a track. relative wind comes from close to the same direction. and btw we do not say the canopy has to be deployed in a track only that it performs well in a track and as that gives you added seperation for increased safety it is the preferred recommended position to be in a slight track.

as far as an elliptical design being good for begineers and high experience there is absolutely nothing contradictory about that. you are basing that comment on misconceptions of you think being elliptical means. older elliptical designs had certain negative traits that made them only suitable for higher experience. but the reality that the only thing you can assume by knowing a canopy is elliptical is that it is more efficient, absolutely nothing more. wethre it is a pocket rocket or a student canopy are determined by the sum total of many design variables. the cobalt is not prone to spinning mal, is very stable, very efficient (fly's big), high glide, slow foward speed and high flare at light wing loadings it is imo a superior choice to a saber/safire. what makes it an excellent canopy at higher wingloadings is the way it speads tension across the top skin which translates to very low spanwise distortion on the airfoil at high wingloadings. the cobalt has the same planform and airfoil as the space and alpha canopies. the alpha has a flawless 6year track record with begineers, the alpha was the hotest swoop canopy up to a few years ago (jim slaton among other 'swoopa stars' competed on alpha). the only difference between the space and the alpha : the name and recommended loading. i have pointed this out many times and no one has ever said the space is an unsuitable canopy for begineers but in people still have the knee jerk reaction of thinking an alpha or cobalt could be good for begineers.

and btw every canopy we make is elliptical including our base canopies. (our reserves are [], although several companies have reserves in testing and development which are are elliptical)

sincerely,

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[Hooknswoop 19]

Dan, your profile indicates you jump at the "RANCH" and use an "atair reserve 110 ft²". According to TSO Holders (TSO 23d) , Atair does not hold TSO C23d Authorization. This tells me 2 things, 1) Atair does make a reserve canopy, and 2) you are illegally jumping a non-TSO'd reserve canopy in the U.S. Is this correct?

Refering to the Cobalt,

Quote

it is tested far in excess of tso requirements. it greatly exceeds requirements to be certified as a reserve.

To include?:

Being functionally open within 3 seconds from the moment of pack opening?
Being functionally open within 300 feet from the altitude at pack opening?
Being functionally open within 2 seconds of breaking away from another canopy descending at less than 20 FPS?
All 70 drop tests?
What is the Cobalt 65's rate of descent with 182 lbs. suspended weight (a 2.8:1 wingloading)? Not higher than 24 FPS? Below a total velocity of 36 FPS? [deployment configuration, i.e. brakes stowed]
2 drops of a free fall of at least 20 seconds where the user must suffer no significant discomfort from the opening shock and must be able to disengage himself unaided from the harness after landing?

Some Cobalt owners have posted that their Cobalt opens unacceptably hard, even following all of Atair's recommendations. Some Cobalt owners have posted that their Cobalt opens very nicely, all the time.

I would conclude that nicely opening Cobalts are hit or miss. Some do, some don't.

Atair has made some outrageous claims on this forum in the past, claims they could not back up. Anyone considering purchasing a new canopy should understand that manufactures will try to paint the best possible picture of their product and are in the business of making money. Some manufacturers are more reputable than others. Research any gear purchase thoroughly, to include test jumping a product you are considering.

A little history;

Atair has posted:

"something to consider that most people do not realize is that the first shock you feel when deploying a canopy is at line stretch before your canopy is out of the bag. this shock is caused by the pilot chute, not the canopy. if this defination is acceptable as line dump i have quite alot of proof as to it happening both video and datalogged jumps.

as the opening sequence is a series of fast shocks a jumper is usually incorect when recounting what happened in the analysis of a jump. i.e. 10 different pilots, 10 jumps, same single canopy, and you will get 10+ different accounts of how it opened. probably none of which match the recorded datalogged sensor data. the most dramatic recorded instance of the above was 29g's at line stretch and then 6.4g peak once the canopy came out of the bag. improperly sized pilots especially at higer speeds can definately rock you harder than you canopy. "

Only later, after being questioned, is it explained:

"1000# exit weight, 350 sq' main, vector tandem rig, 184mph speed at deployment. scrunchie failed to collapse drogue, line stretch generated 29g's, canopy upon exiting bag generated a max of 6.4 g's stage 1, about 3.5 g's stage 2. "

It was not a normal sport rig, but a tandem at high speed with a drogue that failed to collapse. The data used to back up that statement doesn't apply to normal sport rigs.

In another thread Atair posted:

"so yes our student canopy is considerably more elliptical than many canopies you will see in swoop competitions."

To which was asked: "Your student canopy, do you mean the Cobalt?" (The largest Cobalt offered is a 170 sq. ft. and a 'student' is defined, in the USA, as a skydiver without a license, generally less than 20 jumps.)

To which they replied:

"yes i mean the cobalt and previously the space/alpha."

"chart: we have a real world wingloading chart posted on our web site. what i mean by real world is a list of where most of our customers fall into. i.e. begineer 1.2-1.4, intermediate 1.4-1.6 etc... "

And clarified later:

"Do you recommend putting students under Cobalts at a 1.2 wing loading?"

"yes, anyone you would consider safe under a sabre, safire or hornet is equally safe on a cobalt."

"Has this been done?"

"yes"

"Where?"

But a Drop Zone where the student equipment included Cobalt 170's (or smaller) was never given.

To reply to your post:

Quote

as far as an elliptical design being good for begineers and high experience there is absolutely nothing contradictory about that. you are basing that comment on misconceptions of you think being elliptical means. older elliptical designs had certain negative traits that made them only suitable for higher experience. but the reality that the only thing you can assume by knowing a canopy is elliptical is that it is more efficient, absolutely nothing more. wethre it is a pocket rocket or a student canopy are determined by the sum total of many design variables. the cobalt is not prone to spinning mal, is very stable, very efficient (fly's big), high glide, slow foward speed and high flare at light wing loadings it is imo a superior choice to a saber/safire.

I notice you have changed you term from 'student' to beginner', progress.

"imo", from the salesman, not an Instructor. Many Instructors, including me, have a different opinion of the Cobalt as a beginner's canopy. It is not suitable for beginners. I base that opinion upon of years of Instructing. The characteristics the Cobalt demonstrates are not the characteristics of a good student or beginner canopy.

Quote

the alpha has a flawless 6year track record with begineers

I disagree. It does not have a flawless record with beginners.

Quote

the only difference between the space and the alpha : the name and recommended loading. i have pointed this out many times and no one has ever said the space is an unsuitable canopy for begineers but in people still have the knee jerk reaction of thinking an alpha or cobalt could be good for begineers.

The Space is unsuitable for beginners. (I have jumped one and was surprised at the performance)

Derek

[AggieDave 6]

Dan,

Containers weren't really designed to have deployment initiated in a track, unless the jumper has "wingsuit corners" won't that lead to a higher rate of "odd" openings. Such as linetwists due to the bag bouncing out of the main packtray?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

the cobalt was tested in 543 datalogged jumps. force vs time measurements were made with sensors on all risers, in addition to triaxial accelerometers, barometric & gps. see: http://extremefly.com/aerospace/DAS/dataloggers/
http://extremefly.com/aerospace/DAS/sensors/

Dan,

I was going to point out that while you have a lot of "data" the way in which you interpret it to the general public is flawed.

Case in point, PIA 99' you had a bunch of nice looking graphs that said nothing. Misdirection was the name of the game there. You successfully answered more questions about the nifty camera lens your booth featured, rather than satisfy anyone's questions as to why they should jump a Cobalt two standard sizes smaller than the canopy they were currently jumping, and you did this without even finding out anything about a persons history, or experience.

PIA 01' Ditto, except you didn't even have the neat-o camera lens.

But Derek has addressed the data inconsistencies so well already.


I find it tiring that you refuse to comment on the business practices and continue to avoid issues.

It is irresponsible to promote a canopy as safe for head down deployment when you have not designed and offered a complete system for the same scenario. A modern container is not certified or designed for that kind of abuse.

It is irresponsible to advise student to jump what you call a high performance canopy.

And it is an attempt to pull the wool over people's eyes to claim your canopy, with no change in planform is both an acceptable student/novice canopy, and a high performance product capable of competing with any other high performance design.

You've used the term "fly's big". Define it. And if you're going to say it's more efficient, prove it.

I will venture a guess that you do not instruct students, as the advice you've given to novices is not acceptable. Novices are incredibly impressionable, and if given the option to look more experienced (jump smaller "high performance" canopies) in the eyes of their peers, they will often take it.

I have witnessed demos being shipped direct from Atair to jumpers not qualified to jump them. Or do you consider it acceptable for someone with 300 jumps loaded at 1.1 or less to demo a Cobalt with a 1.5lb per sq ft loading? This is not one isolated incident I'm referring to either.

There is a reason the only people who try to sell your product are trunk dealers. The majors in the industry have been in business long enough to not want to expose themselves to the liability that your rhetoric brings.

As a manufacturer I believe you need to hold yourself to a higher standard. You should be the most conservative point of reference, and advice.

Quote

yes your post does come off as a personal attack.

If you took it that way that's your issue. I am addressing your product, and more so your business practices. You stand behind them, so if you take exception to what I'm saying maybe you should look at what you are doing.

Quote

ps. if your reply has the same tone as your original post do not expect a reply.

Based on Atair, and your previous history of avoiding the direct question with misdirection, and ignoring what you wish not to respond to, I didn't expect one.



To sum up (these are my opinions):

The Cobalt is a medium performance canopy, not suitable for beginners at ANY loading.

It constantly opens no better than any other design as evidenced by both personal experience, and first hand accounts online and in the real world.

It suffers from problems that Atair solves with solutions that are so far outside or industry norms it's comical.

Some solutions (i.e. Small P/C's) come with new added problems (i.e. P/C in tow, premature deployments).

The marketing Atair chooses to use is based more on smoke and mirrors, backed up with claims of "data". When investigated the "data" seems lacking.

Atair does not appear to care about the safety in the industry, or sport or, the welfare of the newer jumpers.

Students/Novices/Beginners, should not consider the Cobalt as anything other than what it is, a highly elliptical platform that should be afforded as much consideration when making a canopy choice as any other canopy in it's class (i.e. Stiletto, Crossfire, Nitron, Heatwave, ect.)

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[dgskydive 0]

Dan,
I am amazed at the claims made here and in past threads by Atair. No matter what you claim, the bottom line is that your canopy is inconsistent! I have seen more then enough Cobalts with 10-15 jumps on them for sale as used. That says's a lot about the canopy right there! IMHO showing pictures of people opening in a sit or head down is irresponsible! New jumpers especially are very suseptible to advertising. I wonder how many have tried opening in one of those positions and have gotten hurt and not said anything because once they did it they knew they had done something very stupid? Saying that an elliptical 170 from any manufacture is suitible for students is asking for trouble. Most new jumpers can't stand up a square 230 with any type of consistency. Maybe a wrongfull death lawsuit will change your mind someday. I don't wish that on you or any other manufacture out there but, if one of my friends or family just started jumping and you sold them a Cobalt 170 and they got hurt or killed. You would be getting a phone call or 2 that is for sure! The biggest problem in our sport today IMHO is the problem of people killing themselves under perfectly good canopies. I don't think you are helping the sport by encouraging new jumpers to jump that sort of canopy and I will never recomend anyone jump that canopy until the very clear problems are fixed. I don't mean this as a threat nor am I telling anyone to sue you! I just think you are being very, very careless with your marketing. Thank God that most schools and gear stores out there are smart enough to not believe the hype. If you put out a good product people will buy it. Case in point, Aerodyne. They have come out with a GREAT line of canopies! Why do they sell? They open nice, they fly nice and they are consistent. I have no fear of grapping any of the canopies we have from them because I know that no matter which one I get it will perform just like the last one. No surprises from canopy to canopy! Surprises are good in a box of Cracker Jacks, not at 2 grand!

Dom

[ianmdrennan 2]

I know it's not quite the topic at hand but I noticed some comments relating and thought I'd throw this in:

For the record I think it's the responsibility of the jumper and the dz to ensure that the gear they are buying/jumping is suitable.
There are too many loopholes for inexperienced jumpers to get canopies from manufacturers that are out of their experience level that the jumper can manipulate the manufacturers system with.

Of course manufacturers should have a list of questions and acceptable answers, but they cannot police who actually ends up getting the canopy.

That is, in my opinion, for the dropzone, s&ta and jumper to do. They are around the jumper and should be familiar with their abilities.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[dgskydive 0]

We don't wanna get to far off the original topic but, I think it is all of our responsiblity. I know that when selling gear I always try to get there experience level. I even try and ask questions to trip people up from time to time. It has even worked. Usually they will hang up the phone at that point. My problem with Atair is that they market the canopy as being great for students! They are encouraging them to buy it. All the other manufactures or more then happy to hear from us if we have a customer that we think is not suitable for the canopy they are trying to get. A number of times I have called over to PD to let them know someones name who is really trying to get a canopy that is not suitable for them. I just really believe it is not best for Atair and for skydiving as a whole to market these canopies to beginners. Just because gear has gotten better over time does not mean that new jumpers are getting smarter or better at flying canopies. As far as I can tell it is the other way around. Not enough attention is payed to canopy skills with newer jumpers! We are a self regulating sport and it is all of our jobs to look out for an take care of each other. IMHO all other issues aside, Atair is not helping. I agree with you that there are loop holes for jumpers to get any canopy that they want. I just don't agree with the manufacture if they are going to market a canopy that by any other standard is not suitable for a student. Think of the reaction if PD started marketing Stiletto 170's to new jumpers just off student status. Can you imagine going form a 230 whatever to a Stiletto 170. How many of those people would have a problem? Sure some would be ok but how many would get hurt or even killed? PD is to smart for that. I hope Atair figures it out.

Dom

[andrewstewart 0]

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I believe the Cobalt is the best 9 cell out there. Untill you are ready to go to X braced 21 or 27 cell you have made the right choice.

I agree with you. I think if we were to focus on the flight characteristics of the canopy you'd find almost universal praise for how the Cobalt flies - it really is impressive IMHO.

- Andrew

[andrewstewart 0]

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When I faxed the demo request form, I heard nothing for a week or so. I started to send out some e-mails, and didn't get a response. Once I did (maybe two weeks later) they said it was going out right away. Well, six weeks later, they called to see if I was still interested. I said sure, and three days later I got a 95 Comp in the mail. No risers. No card for the links, just daisey chained and swinging free. Oh, the slider was still collapsed, so I know an inspection was not dome inbetween demo jumpers. Great first impression.

On the contrary, my demo was shipped within a week and there was good phone contact throughout. It was shipped on risers and ready to go.

- Andrew

[andrewstewart 0]

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10-4 good buddy.

Maybe Atair should ship the demos with a pilot chute of the reccomended size. Oh, wait, before they do that, maybe they could ship the demos on risers.

Risers too expensive? How about a chunk of cardboard with six holes in it so the line groups and steering lines don't become tangled/flipped/twisted or whatever.

Cardboard too expensive? Must be.....


Just to be fair, I was impressed that the diamonds were actually sewn into the bottom skin. I was expecting them to be applied over top of the bottom skin.

My demo arrived on risers.

[andrewstewart 0]

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as far as hard opening cobalts all i can say is that the instance is rare.

But Dan, they're not that rare. If they were, there wouldn't see as many people as there are complaining about them. Right?

Not necessarily true. The people "complaining" seem to be far more vocal than what has to be a silent majority of people who are perfectly happy with their Cobalt. Even if we were to say that there were 20 people on this forum who hated the Cobalt, I think that Atair have sold a lot more than 20 canopies...