Downsizing

[Caseadilla 0]

I know this question probably comes up all the time but Im looking for advice for different sources. I currently have an Omega 185 and I am loading about 1.1 to 1. I have actually gotten some pretty descent swoops out of it. I think I've taken the canopy to its limits and I am ready to downsize. I am interested in the characteristics of the Crossfire2's flight capabilities. In order for me to get the performance that the crossfire is known for I will need to load 1.4 or higher. I believe in my flying ability enough to fly at this rate, but I would be jumping from 1.1 to 1.4.
Just looking for outside input. Thanks
Casey

I've got this gay midget friend--he just came out of the cabinet

[AggieDave 6]

Sup Case? Long time no see, hope the new EF is kicking ass...


Anyways.

IMHO, the jump from an Omega to a Xfire2 is a decent one, even without the downsizing. Have you thought about trying something like a Stilletto at a lighter wingloading as a stepping stone?

I'd try to talk Malachi into letting me jump his Hornet some too, if I was you...

*cough*you know I might have a kickass Heatwave 170 laying around doing nothing before too long*cough*

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Caseadilla 0]

Hey Dave whats up man? How'd the AOT boogie go down there? Wish I could of been there. EF is doing a hell of a lot better. We just need somemore freeflyers to comeout!

I have jumped a friends Stilleto 150 a handful of times and he also has a 135 Im going to jump a few times. I'm thinking about a xfire2 129 which would put me at 1.45 which is not too radical of a leap in wingloading. Gotta GO
Casey D-pending

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hey Dude,

I wanted to add a couple of thoughts to your decision process, so here goes (hopefully I make some sense
Contrary to popular belief you do NOT have to load the crap out of a canopy to get good performance. Yes, you'll get better performance (If flown correctly) with the higher wingloading, but by no means will you get poor performance.

That's a massive jump your talking about, not only in wingloading but the way the canopy will fly (Think of the percentage of wing you're taking away). It is never recommended to change size and type at the same time, although it can be done. It's just not recommended. The USPA have also posted these recommendations (which put you in the advanced class)

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3. Advanced equipment generally refers to canopies loaded as follows:

a. above 230 square feet, 1.1 pounds per square foot or higher

b. from 190 to 229 square feet, 1.0 pounds per square foot or higher

c. from 150 to 189 square feet, .9 pounds per square foot or higher

d. canopies smaller than 150 square feet at any wing loading

Now I'm not saying don't have the skill to fly it - just trying to present you with more information based on your choice. I'd venture a guess and say you could learn to swoop the crap out of a 150 (maybe even 150 xf2) which would only make you a BETTER pilot when you're ready to move down to 129.

Remember - buy your canopy size for the worst scenario you can think of. Almost anyone can land a napkin a couple of times, but when the chips are down and madeness is happening around you, make sure you're ready for what you're under.

The choice is yours. Make sure you've thought everything through carefully, and been honest with your abilities before making a decision.

Good luck with whatever decision you make. Be safe.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[marks 0]

Quote

Hey Dude,

I wanted to add a couple of thoughts to your decision process, so here goes (hopefully I make some sense
Contrary to popular belief you do NOT have to load the crap out of a canopy to get good performance. Yes, you'll get better performance (If flown correctly) with the higher wingloading, but by no means will you get poor performance.

That's a massive jump your talking about, not only in wingloading but the way the canopy will fly (Think of the percentage of wing you're taking away). It is never recommended to change size and type at the same time, although it can be done. It's just not recommended. The USPA have also posted these recommendations (which put you in the advanced class)

Quote

3. Advanced equipment generally refers to canopies loaded as follows:

a. above 230 square feet, 1.1 pounds per square foot or higher

b. from 190 to 229 square feet, 1.0 pounds per square foot or higher

c. from 150 to 189 square feet, .9 pounds per square foot or higher

d. canopies smaller than 150 square feet at any wing loading

Now I'm not saying don't have the skill to fly it - just trying to present you with more information based on your choice. I'd venture a guess and say you could learn to swoop the crap out of a 150 (maybe even 150 xf2) which would only make you a BETTER pilot when you're ready to move down to 129.

Remember - buy your canopy size for the worst scenario you can think of. Almost anyone can land a napkin a couple of times, but when the chips are down and madeness is happening around you, make sure you're ready for what you're under.

The choice is yours. Make sure you've thought everything through carefully, and been honest with your abilities before making a decision.

Good luck with whatever decision you make. Be safe.

Blue skies
Ian

weather it matters to you or not.. i agree with this 100%...if you take it slow and push each stepping stone to the limit you will be a better pilot for it in the long run.........


edit to add: if you dont think that is a large jump in wing loading your incorrect.. also your jumping from an omega..."i use these for alot of students" to a crossfire......" no way in hell would i put a student under a crossfire "even at .8 wing loading"... a crossfire is a good canopy but i suggest you try one that is the same size as the omega that you have now and see the huge jump in performance before you decide to go that low in size....

it is good to see that you asking though.... and i hope you take what peaple said here to heart....

ive seen alot of peaple just push it thinking "ohh they just want to hold me back""i can handle it" "i will just be conservative"..... well then you get comfortable in about 20-30 jumps on it... then you get hurt......

please dont get hurt..... later..

[AggieDave 6]

What the other two guys have said is really true. That's why I was suggesting something like a Stilletto to transition with.

As you know, wingloadings are not all the same. For instance my 1.9 wingloading on the Vengence (150) is not nearly the same as a 1.9 on Pablo's Samuri 111. Has to do with line length, size of the canopy and how it relates to drag, etc.

You know, I could jump Todd's Velocity 103 and probably land it just fine once, maybe even a handful of times. That doesn't mean I have the skill to fly it.

Think about the landing area at EF and what your outs are (besides Farmer McNasty). Do you think you could execute a low turn to put you into the wind and land it in the HS football stadium?


You know I'm not one to be a stickler about wingloading and performance canopies...I just really don't want to see you get hurt. Although I'm not saying that you will get hurt, it just ups your chances a LOT with that much of a change.


Hey, I'm going to try to get to EF in the next month or so, its just kinda hard right now since this is when our student jumping really picks up (from the school), so we're really busy, thus I'm really busy. But yup, I need to get up there to toss some midgets, do some FF and try to scare Fuller swooping across the landing area.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TALONSKY 0]

A little over a year ago I made a similar transition. I weight 240 out the door and had been flying a Safire 169 for over 300 jumps. I went to a Crossfire 2 130, the first few jumps were very shocking as the Crossfire 2 at the new wing loading fly’s a hell of a lot faster. There is nothing like loosing 400 + feet in a toggle turn to wake you up. I landed fine just taken back a lot by the drastic difference. After that I found another fun fact about the Crossfire 2, they are very sensitive to hip input. Since my Safire was not hip input sensitive I had never had to worry about that. Well for the first 20 jumps on my Crossfire 2 after opening became a stressful few seconds as I was either spiraling to the right or left until I could unstow my brakes. After 20 jumps I got use to the hip input and ever since have had no problems. Now, just to let you know how different the Crossfire 2 is to the Crossfire 1. A friend had been flying a Crossfire 1 129 for over 150 jumps. We decided to trade so we could see the differences. He almost chopped my Crossfire 2 because he was in a spiral for the first 2000ft trying to get use to the added hip input sensitive.
Things I would have done differently would be: I would like to have put 50 or so jumps on a Crossfire 1 or 2 149 getting use to an elliptical canopy before jumping in and going straight to the Crossfire 2 130. You may be a Skygod in training and can handle these things better than I did (I am not a Skygod in training) but you should just consider these things I have mentioned.
Kirk

[marks 0]

well has any of this information helped??

this is a self governing sport.. so it is up to you to make the decision on what your going to do,...

i just would like you to tell us what that decision is when you make it......

i would suggest the smallest crossfire you try for the next 50-75 jumps would be a crossfire no smaller than 169. i think you will be impressed with what that canopie can do....

and it is good for you to ask these questions..

please dont feel like anyone is holding you back or trying to tell you what you can and cant do..

but if you really really like swooping then when you get there.. you will look back and see that this was really the way to go....

later..

mark

[Caseadilla 0]

All the information has been very helpful and its kind of what I was expecting to here. I have been thinking the same thing about maybe getting a canopy just a few sizes smaller than what I have right now and have it be fully eliptical. But the reason why I thought that you had to have a certain wingloading on the xfires is because that is what the icarus people told one of my friends. It may not be true, but I heard that if you load them to light at maybe 1.1-1.3 then it will die on you in the middle of your surf and you will have to hit pretty hard and run it out. Somebody inform me if this is correct. What besides a Stilleto would be a good stepping stone. I want something fast & elliptical that will lead me on the way to becoming a great canopy pilot like the big dogs! I fully agree with not making a severe jump in wingloading and shape, but I'm ready to take the NEXT step. Thanks for all the input, yall are a lot of help.
Casey

[TALONSKY 0]

A while back I loaned my Crossfire 2 130 to Manbird for a few weeks(he had a cutway and never recover his main). He was loading my Crossfire a about 1.3 to 1 and got some great 200 plus foot swoops out of it. He was totally impressed considering how lightly he was loading it.
Kirk

[ManBird 0]

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In order for me to get the performance that the crossfire is known for I will need to load 1.4 or higher. I believe in my flying ability enough to fly at this rate, but I would be jumping from 1.1 to 1.4.

The Crossfire 2 will perform well at just about any reasonable wingloading. I borrowed a Crossfire 2 for 25 jumps that is 10 sq ft bigger than my previous canopy. I only loaded it at about 1.3:1 and was getting about a 220 foot swoop out of it in no wind (and I'm far from any sort of pro). It's true that you will get better performance at about 1.7:1, but a canopy that performs best at that wingloading is not made for someone with 200 jumps.

With your jump numbers and your current canopy experience, you probably shouldn't move over and down that quickly. The Crossfire 2, at any wingloading, is a very high performance wing... one step away from cross-braced. You should only move one direction at a time. Either fly a higher performance airfoil at the same wingloading, or fly a similar airfoil at a higher wingloading. Going from a square seven cell loaded at 1.1 to a highly elliptical canopy loaded at 1.4 is simply not acceptable, and you will more than likely injure yourself.

You obviously want to break out of the square seven cell mold, so I'd recommend changing shape before changing size. Something like a Sabre 2 (semi-elliptical nine cell) at a similar wingloading is advised.

If there's no stopping you from going to a Crossfire 2, at least get some training specifically for flying an elliptical canopy and don't load it too much. The performance of the airfoil will more than make up for the lack of wingloading. Even at less than 1.3:1 it will still be very fast and you will need to be very, very careful. Talk to your S&TA and the most experienced high performance canopy pilots at your drop zone. They've seen you land and will make a better recommendation. If they say you shouldn't get one, then they are right.

At 190 skydives, you probably aren't ready for a Crossfire 2 of any size. No offense, I just hate seeing people rush and get injured or killed. It's OK to have goals in terms of what canopy you'll be flying (I'm at least a couple canopies away from I'd like to see myself 900 jumps from now), but don't rush it.

Have fun, be safe, and make the right decision.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[ManBird 0]

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It may not be true, but I heard that if you load them to light at maybe 1.1-1.3 then it will die on you in the middle of your surf and you will have to hit pretty hard and run it out. Somebody inform me if this is correct.

I call bullshit. There is a TON of flare in this canopy, and it will stay inflated and pressurized until you put it on the ground.

I accidentally popped up about fifteen feet when I hit the brakes too hard to clear the lip on the pond, after swooping the whole thing. As a side note, this canopy is so much faster than the one I was jumping before I borrowed it (keep in mind that this Crossfire 2 was ten sq ft BIGGER and was loaded at 1.3:1), that I still hit my foot on the lip (very hard). The necessary reaction is much higher for this canopy.

It's a kickass canopy. After I get about 400 jumps in on my new Sabre 2, I'd like to move over to a slightly smaller Crossfire 2 or equivalent.

Just for a bit of perspective, I'll have at least 1,000 jumps by the time I'm putting myself on highly elliptical nine cell at it's optimum wingloading. And not to toot my own horn, but I'll probably do well with it pretty quickly because I will have just put 400 jumps on a canopy that was only 8 sq ft larger and less elliptical, much like I just downsized from a canopy that was square and only 13 sq ft larger after putting 400 jumps on it.

I'm getting dirt-water-dirt on our pond after only 15 jumps on my new main because it is only slightly off of my old one. I can focus on performance and safe swoops instead of worrying about whether I'll have legs when I'm done with it. It definitely makes you a better swoop to pace yourself.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[johnny1488 1]

I was leary of downsizing from a safire 209 to a xfire2 169 (I wanted a longer recovery arc and to start swooping more. I had done a bunch of work on my canopy) I went with a safire2 169. It got me swooping more and I liked it but knew I wanted a xfire2. I wasnt sure after 150 jumps or so if I was ready for a downsize so I went with a xfire2 169 loaded at 1.35:1. (under Icarus' recomended loading by the way) After almost 200 jumps I would be ready for a downsize, but my rig wont be ready until the end of the year and Im glad. every weekend I but my baby through the wringer and am having a blast. I have jumped much smaller canopies and had no probelm but know I learned much faster than I could have on a smaller xfire2. I have jumped my gf's safire2 139 and a buddys safire1 149 and 2 135. They have been faster and a bit more responsive but I felt I got more performance out of my xfire2. I also feel I've learned enough that flying the smaller stuff was easy. (by easy I mean after 20 seconds up top I felt fairly comfortable with the canopy and was doing 180 harness turns and carving almost 90 degrees during the flare.)

Dont be afraid of slightly underloading a xfire2. I am getting some killer swoops out of mine and they are getting better every jump.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[sarge 0]

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It may not be true, but I heard that if you load them to light ...

Yeah, I heard something about premium wing-load recommendations as well: Icarus 1.4-2.1 and practitioners that say 1.8 is ideal...

I do 1.6/7 and have weighted it up to 2.0. The flight charachteristics are planar. To begin with, it flies fast and narrow, tight and clean with a good strong responsive flare in those ranges. It dives deeper, faster and longer as it gets heavier but the plane-out nonetheless always powerful and predictable. I have have had turbulance concerns relating to lighter loading but they are yet unresolved. Speed is your friend and worst enemy with this canopy, It is not an intermediate canopy. Go large if you wish to transition is my opinion.

There are other guys guys here that fly this thing heavier day-to-day than me and they have made numerous posts on this subject. I won't mention them by name, but if you search...say, xf2 or maybe something of an oriental username you will get a lot of material to review...

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I currently have an Omega 185 and I am loading about 1.1 to 1.

I think I've taken the canopy to its limits and I am ready to downsize.

In order for me to get the performance that the crossfire is known for I will need to load 1.4 or higher. I believe in my flying ability enough to fly at this rate, but I would be jumping from 1.1 to 1.4.

1. You are not flying the canopy at its limits unless you're pulling 90+ degree turns after planeout, flying over obstacles on the ground, using 180/270 degree turns to build speed, landing on rear risers, making dead centers, and stopping within a couple steps. Some of those things (obstacle avoidance, accuracy, shutting down the canopy) are survival skills you should know before down-sizing because the effects of not knowing them will become increasingly critical. More radical approaches and rear riser landings are probably not yet good ideas for you. This doesn't mean that you're not bored, or that a less radical downsize will be unsafe - it's just not possible to master canopy flight or even a single canopy in a few hundred jumps.

2. Any high performance elliptical @ 1.4 pounds/square foot is going to fly radically differently (it'll dive more, respond to subtle control inputs, etc) from your Omega. I had some problems flying straight after plane-out when I switched from my Batwing 134 to my Stiletto 120 - a change of one size between elliptical canopies. Two sizes at once is a bad idea, a size + shape change is bad, and both at the same time invites comments like "show us your femur."

3. Canopies have a wing loading at which they fly best; although when underloaded within reason they still fly great. If the DZs you jump at will let you jump a high performance elliptical and you're still going to buy one after people have told you it's a bad idea, something in the 170 square foot range will give you something more twitchy and ground hungry that's less likely to break you before you master it.

4. You don't yet have enough experience jumping smaller parachutes to predict how you'll do. Although canopies don't fly much faster as they get smaller, your perceptions of the speed are radically different. Altitude lost in a dive, control sensitivity, etc. are also hard to predict and potentially problematic.

5. An intermediate performance non-square wing of your choice (Lotus, Omega, Sabre2, Spectre, etc.) ~20 square feet smaller would be a good next step. Downsize again to the same class of canopy after your local canopy gurus feel you're ready and you've made at least 100-200 jumps on your new canopy. After similar experience under your Omega 145 it may be appropriate to buy a Crossfire 145.