freakyflyr11 0 #1 June 3, 2003 does any one know how well a vengeance opens and will it swoop.compared to a cross fire2? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #2 June 3, 2003 i jumped my buddy's vengence 97 for a while (about 100 jumps or so). it was a nice canopy, it opened nice, and flew nice. but it doesn't compare to the crossfire 2 at all. the swoops are decent, but it's really nothing more than a stilleto with airlocks (a little difference, but not much). the openings are kinda dancey, but so are the crossfires. if you had to choose between those 2 canopy's, i would recomend the crossfire 2. (i've put only 50 or so jumps on a crossfire 2's, a 89 and a 105) later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 June 3, 2003 Quoteit's really nothing more than a stilleto with airlocks (a little difference, but not much). I was under the impression they were basically totally different airfoils, along with different trim settings, not to mention airlocks...in other words, totally different canopies. Where's Kolla when you need her? --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #4 June 3, 2003 Quoteit's really nothing more than a stilleto with airlocks (a little difference, but not much). Stilettos don't dive 700 feet. Always go with PD always. You canopy will last for thousands of jumps, customer service will be top notch, and seldom needed maintenance will be cheap."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #5 June 3, 2003 Manbird, are you saying other manufacturers can't provide all of those same things? personaly I'd go with Icarus as I've received nothing but the best service from them. plus the Xfire kicks ass.... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #6 June 3, 2003 No, I am just saying that they have a much longer track record, and that they have earned a hell of a bias from me. ;) I basically see parachute manufacturers like this: PD and imitators."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #7 June 3, 2003 So your a PD snob???? Well I'm an anti PD snob...so far I have yet to own a PD canopy.. PISA, Precision, and Icarus for me...and have no complaints about any of them other than my reserve issue with the DashM. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billdo 0 #8 June 3, 2003 Maybe he should get a Cobalt. Uh oh! Here it comes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #9 June 3, 2003 I'm just being snide. There's innovation and quality coming from many manufacturers, but I just really like PD as a company. Personally, I hate seeing canopies getting compared. A Crossfire 2 is pretty damn different than Vengeance, and a Vengeance is pretty damn different than a Stiletto, and a Cobalt is... what the hell is that? ;) I can take my 1994 Sabre coast-to-coast-and-then-some on our 200 ft pond. Someone in a Velocity always bails out. Someone on a Merit 160 can kick all of our asses. This basically says to me, fly what you enjoy flying, and you'll find a way to kick ass at it."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #10 June 3, 2003 Quotedoes any one know how well a vengeance opens and will it swoop.compared to a cross fire2?OK, my actual answer is this: It will swoop as well as you make it swoop."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #11 June 3, 2003 Don't buy a Vengeance., Buy a Samurai. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alain 0 #12 June 3, 2003 QuoteThis basically says to me, fly what you enjoy flying, and you'll find a way to kick ass at it. amen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NM156 0 #13 June 3, 2003 I can only comment on the Vengeance, since I have never jumped a Crossfire 2. I have over 200 jumps on a Vengeance. The Vengeance have given me excellent openings (always very soft and on heading). The recovery arc is pretty long compared to the stiletto. You can definitely have some good swoop with the Vengeance and personally, I like the airlocks... but that's just preference. Your best option is to try both and see which one you prefer. NM156 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #14 June 3, 2003 I have ~200 jumps on a vengeance loaded at 1.7. They have light riser pressure (not like a stilleto). they dive very hard and have a negative recovery arc (not like a stilleto). They are a different animal and a great all round canopy if you work at a dZ and want to swoop alot. They are different from a samurai in that they have a very sensitive flare (like a stilleto), where a samurai flare is something that takes getting used to. All of these canopies are non cross braced and will only surf so far. A good pilot on any of these canopies will out swoop a mediocre pilot on the other (and possibly a mediocre pilot on a cross brace). A competition cobalt (flame away) will in the hands of the right pilot swoop further due to the thinnner cross section and reinforced nose. A good pilot on a stilleto will surf pretty damn far, so.... OK so my actual opinion...I'd get a vengeance over a crossfire 2 simply based on the line trim fiasco the crossfires had. PD tests their products better than that other company. Both canopies swoop and open reasonably well. My 2 cents ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakyflyr11 0 #15 June 3, 2003 i have a cobalt that i bought last nov.and have had nothing but problems with.from the canopy to the cust. service.ill never buy a cobalt agian!!!!!by the way if ant body wants to buy a cobalt ive got a brand new one for sale!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakyflyr11 0 #16 June 3, 2003 i demoed a sam.120 and didnt care for that style of canopy,espacaly the openings.but i will give it to brian the cust service was outstanding!!!the weekend i had it the weather sucked so i only got 3 jumps on it.when i told him of this he said to keep it another week..i thought that was cool and they are a great company. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #17 June 3, 2003 Buy Jump Shack's Firebolt and tell us what it's like."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Yoshi 0 #18 June 3, 2003 anyone and everyone that has delt with a company will have something good/bad to say about it.. personally I have had nothing but the best experiences with icarus (even though my crossfire 1 was on the recall list) it was all delt with very professionally and quickly. (even providing me with a demo while it was being fixed) and others will say that they hate icarus... whatever your mood (since I jsut blabbered out) start a new thread this is about the crossfire and the vengance... the crossfire 2 I believe is the highest performance non crossbraced canopy on the market. if you are looking for swoops and speed without dealing with a crossbraced canopy the crossfire is prob the best bet... but that is just my 2 cents! -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #19 June 3, 2003 I can certainly vouch for Brian. While I have yet to jump ANY of his canopies.....I have heard nothing but good things about them from people that do. I have also met and jumped with Brian several times. He's a really nice guy. It also impressed me when I was at Z Hills in January. He was spending all day jumping someone elses canopy. Don't remember what the customer wanted done to it but Brian had "worked" on it and was putting it through it's paces to make sure it flew exactly like he wanted it to. I call that dedication to your cusomers when the owner of the company modifies and test flies your canopy for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyhi 24 #20 June 3, 2003 Quotei have a cobalt that i bought last nov.and have had nothing but problems with.from the canopy to the cust. service.ill never buy a cobalt agian!!!!!by the way if ant body wants to buy a cobalt ive got a brand new one for sale!!!! I think I would have put those in two different posts. But that's just me. I jump a Vengeance at 1.6 and enjoy it quite a bit. Not sure who said it opened on heading, but I really have to fly it through the openings. Those openings allowed me to perfect harness inputs. Never been slammed on an opening, though. Nice and soft and I have jumped with a camera on the last 20 or so. I pro-pack and am not real particular about it. Very nice. It does not swoop long, but that may be due to operator head spacing. I can get it to slow way down, but even when it planes out with no toggle input, the length of the swoop is not monumental. Might consider downsizing to a 120 in a few more jumps, but for now I am very happy with the V. BTW, it is my second one. The first one did a diving turn on three out of every four openings. PD took it back no questions asked. They definitely stand behind their stuff.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #21 June 3, 2003 QuoteQuoteThis basically says to me, fly what you enjoy flying, and you'll find a way to kick ass at it. amen That is absolutely true. A good pilot will wring the hell out of whatever is over his or her head. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #22 June 3, 2003 PD was working ona mod to make the openings on Vengences straighter and smoother. I'd contact them to see what the status of the project was. They asked for a few of the canopies at my DZ to be sent back so they could get the mod on them.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #23 June 3, 2003 I think the mod only applied to the larger sizes. I'm not sure what qualifies as "larger", but my 89 didn't fall under that heading. Loaded at 2.2 it seems to swoop pretty far, I guess.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Pablito 0 #24 June 4, 2003 I have about 600 jumps on airlocks canopies. about 450 in a Vengance and 100 on the Jedei and 50 on a samurai. I like the Airlock because I feel is a superior wing than the non airlock canopies. The vengance Opens sweet and swoops really nice, but is not as responsive as the Samurai. The Samurai has a get use to flare and I like that becuase of the awarness that creates for me. The vengance has an easier flare. I shoot video and I have nothing to blame on the vengance for openings. Neither the samurai. I never jumped Xfire. so I can talk about it. "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blair700 0 #25 June 6, 2003 Hey man, I only have 500 jumps, the last 75 or so on a Vengence 150 loaded at 1.56 or so. I'd say about 40 of them were tandem video jumps and the rest pretty even between winguit and freefly jumps. I transitioned to this canopy from a saffire 189 (flame away) and had a horrible time with opening headings on the first 20 or so jumps. Now it opens straight most of the time, but I've found my BEST opening are with the wingsuit. At pull time, I remain very still and symmetrical, and I'm not able to mess with the risers until I'm unzipped, and it seems to open straight. Less is more from my experience (not much obviously) on opening, stay centered in the harness and leave the risers alone. I leave the nose hanging straight down and exposed when I pack, and psycho it up like my sleeping bag from there. Always takes about 600-700 feet to open which is great with me....except on AFF videos As far as the swoop, I'm no expert there either, but I've recently started working on more than 180 degree turns using the front risers and harness, and I came out of a 270 last weekend with the most distance/speed of any swoop I've had so far. And believe me, I could really rag that saffire out. Anywho, my first inclination was to sell the canopy after all the bad openings, especially for wingsuit jumps, but I got it all worked out and I LOVE the Vengence now. 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ManBird 0 #17 June 3, 2003 Buy Jump Shack's Firebolt and tell us what it's like."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #18 June 3, 2003 anyone and everyone that has delt with a company will have something good/bad to say about it.. personally I have had nothing but the best experiences with icarus (even though my crossfire 1 was on the recall list) it was all delt with very professionally and quickly. (even providing me with a demo while it was being fixed) and others will say that they hate icarus... whatever your mood (since I jsut blabbered out) start a new thread this is about the crossfire and the vengance... the crossfire 2 I believe is the highest performance non crossbraced canopy on the market. if you are looking for swoops and speed without dealing with a crossbraced canopy the crossfire is prob the best bet... but that is just my 2 cents! -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #19 June 3, 2003 I can certainly vouch for Brian. While I have yet to jump ANY of his canopies.....I have heard nothing but good things about them from people that do. I have also met and jumped with Brian several times. He's a really nice guy. It also impressed me when I was at Z Hills in January. He was spending all day jumping someone elses canopy. Don't remember what the customer wanted done to it but Brian had "worked" on it and was putting it through it's paces to make sure it flew exactly like he wanted it to. I call that dedication to your cusomers when the owner of the company modifies and test flies your canopy for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #20 June 3, 2003 Quotei have a cobalt that i bought last nov.and have had nothing but problems with.from the canopy to the cust. service.ill never buy a cobalt agian!!!!!by the way if ant body wants to buy a cobalt ive got a brand new one for sale!!!! I think I would have put those in two different posts. But that's just me. I jump a Vengeance at 1.6 and enjoy it quite a bit. Not sure who said it opened on heading, but I really have to fly it through the openings. Those openings allowed me to perfect harness inputs. Never been slammed on an opening, though. Nice and soft and I have jumped with a camera on the last 20 or so. I pro-pack and am not real particular about it. Very nice. It does not swoop long, but that may be due to operator head spacing. I can get it to slow way down, but even when it planes out with no toggle input, the length of the swoop is not monumental. Might consider downsizing to a 120 in a few more jumps, but for now I am very happy with the V. BTW, it is my second one. The first one did a diving turn on three out of every four openings. PD took it back no questions asked. They definitely stand behind their stuff.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #21 June 3, 2003 QuoteQuoteThis basically says to me, fly what you enjoy flying, and you'll find a way to kick ass at it. amen That is absolutely true. A good pilot will wring the hell out of whatever is over his or her head. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #22 June 3, 2003 PD was working ona mod to make the openings on Vengences straighter and smoother. I'd contact them to see what the status of the project was. They asked for a few of the canopies at my DZ to be sent back so they could get the mod on them.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #23 June 3, 2003 I think the mod only applied to the larger sizes. I'm not sure what qualifies as "larger", but my 89 didn't fall under that heading. Loaded at 2.2 it seems to swoop pretty far, I guess.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablito 0 #24 June 4, 2003 I have about 600 jumps on airlocks canopies. about 450 in a Vengance and 100 on the Jedei and 50 on a samurai. I like the Airlock because I feel is a superior wing than the non airlock canopies. The vengance Opens sweet and swoops really nice, but is not as responsive as the Samurai. The Samurai has a get use to flare and I like that becuase of the awarness that creates for me. The vengance has an easier flare. I shoot video and I have nothing to blame on the vengance for openings. Neither the samurai. I never jumped Xfire. so I can talk about it. "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blair700 0 #25 June 6, 2003 Hey man, I only have 500 jumps, the last 75 or so on a Vengence 150 loaded at 1.56 or so. I'd say about 40 of them were tandem video jumps and the rest pretty even between winguit and freefly jumps. I transitioned to this canopy from a saffire 189 (flame away) and had a horrible time with opening headings on the first 20 or so jumps. Now it opens straight most of the time, but I've found my BEST opening are with the wingsuit. At pull time, I remain very still and symmetrical, and I'm not able to mess with the risers until I'm unzipped, and it seems to open straight. Less is more from my experience (not much obviously) on opening, stay centered in the harness and leave the risers alone. I leave the nose hanging straight down and exposed when I pack, and psycho it up like my sleeping bag from there. Always takes about 600-700 feet to open which is great with me....except on AFF videos As far as the swoop, I'm no expert there either, but I've recently started working on more than 180 degree turns using the front risers and harness, and I came out of a 270 last weekend with the most distance/speed of any swoop I've had so far. And believe me, I could really rag that saffire out. Anywho, my first inclination was to sell the canopy after all the bad openings, especially for wingsuit jumps, but I got it all worked out and I LOVE the Vengence now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
