Front Riser Pressure....

[ManBird 0]

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basically my canopy usually eats up about 200 feet on a fairly aggressive 180 front riser carve

That's definitely too low, even for a Sabre 170. Even for a Sabre 170 on a cold and muggy day. Even for a Sabre 170 on a cold and muggy day loaded at 1.2. I'm assuming you're snapping your turns. Rather than turn aggressively, or try to hit an exact degree of turn, see how long, in seconds, you can stay in a turn. The longer you are in it, the more vertical speed you will get, whether you're doing a 90, 180, 270, 114, whatever. Different degrees of a turn are more helpful for accuracy than speed/distance. Be patient, slow, and smooth with your front riser turns. You'll get more distance, as well as the option to bail out if, I mean when, needed.

My 1994 Sabre 120 is loaded at 1.5. I can drop it 400 feet and get a 200ft+ swoop on a no wind day. 300ft is even there on a day like yesterday (landing downwind with about 20 knots behind me).

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[rhino 0]

I had a new Xaos98 21 cell and it was extremely hard to pull on front risers at 1.9 wing loading.

My crossfire2, 97 at 1.95 "gained weight" is MUCH MUCH easier.


Rhino

The answer to his question was yes. And 1 foot hardly encompasses a decrease in size. It was a yes although I had 2 smaller canopies of the same size that had entirely different front riser pressures.

[andy2 0]

I guess I am a bit confused. Two completely different statements have been made. A) it will get lighter as you get a smaller canopy, in general. B) canopy size has nothing to do with it. Which is it, preferably someone experienced?

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Yoshi 0]

I would say that with the exact same type of canopy as you go smaller (to an extent) it will get lighter.. when I demo'd a 119 crossfire one it was much lighter riser pressure than my crossfire one 149. riser pressure on my crossfire 2 111 is a little bit higher than that on my brothers crossfire 2 105 (not really noticable, but it is there)


-yoshi

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this space for rent.

[eames 0]

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It isn't a stretch if you can read.... I guess I have to spell it out for some of you...

I don't care how many smiley faces you put after what you say, you are rude and exceptionally arrogant. Do you really think you know everything? What words did I put in your mouth? I quoted you!

Do you really believe there is nothing else out there to learn? Are you the expert just because you were coached by hooknswoop and charlie mullins? Give me a break....

You know, Rhino, I run a canopy school out here at Orange (I'm also an active swooper on the pro tour). Maybe sometime (if your ego will let you) you'll come by. After I humble you a bit, by out-swooping you in any manner that suits your fancy, maybe I'll be so kind as to give you a few pointers.

[eames 0]

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I guess I am a bit confused. Two completely different statements have been made. A) it will get lighter as you get a smaller canopy, in general. B) canopy size has nothing to do with it. Which is it, preferably someone experienced?

There is no general answer. Don't be impressed by the fact that Rhino can site a whopping one example. Here's another example: I have a VX 109 loaded at about 2.1:1. I flew a VX 74 loaded at 3+:1, and the riser pressure was no lighter.

Many people will generalize, because it is what they have learned... especially people without much experience.

Jason

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I'm assuming you're snapping your turns.

If you're referring to snapping turns with a toggle, no I don't do that sort of thing anymore. All of my turns to final are front riser turns. Some are more abrupt than others and some are long smooth turns. It all depends on how much altitude I believe I have to play with, what the traffic around me is doing and what sort of winds I'm flying in.

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Rather than turn aggressively, or try to hit an exact degree of turn, see how long, in seconds, you can stay in a turn. The longer you are in it, the more vertical speed you will get, whether you're doing a 90, 180, 270, 114, whatever.

On my 2nd to last landing on Sunday, I did do a nice gradual 180 degree front riser turn and things turned out rather nice (probably my best swoop landing of the day).

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Different degrees of a turn are more helpful for accuracy than speed/distance. Be patient, slow, and smooth with your front riser turns. You'll get more distance, as well as the option to bail out if, I mean when, needed.

Yes I can definitely see what you're talking about and I do acknowledge that I have much more to learn about my current canopy. After all every landing is different (wind, approach altitude, traffic, etc, etc, etc) and I really do need to experiment more with how much altitude is lost and how much speed is gained doing different approaches.

Here's another question for the knowledgeable. Does the recovery arc change for just the canopy type or will it also change with the wing loading? I could downsize one more time with the Sabre2 model and still be within (barely) the recommended max weight limits and be familiar with the flying characteristics of the canopy type. But the thing I would like to avoid would be to start flying a new canopy type with a recovery arc that I'm not ready for (despite the fact that I wish my current one had a longer recovery).

Note: I'm not planning to change canopy types or sizes anytime soon. This last question was just a question to be saved for future reference.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[eames 0]

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Does the recovery arc change for just the canopy type or will it also change with the wing loading?

It will also change significantly with wing loading... or riser length, or body position, or brake setting, and so on.

Jason

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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It will also change significantly with wing loading... or riser length, or body position, or brake setting, and so on.

Thanks for the info. I knew the diving characteristics were effected by wing loading and canopy types, etc, etc, etc but I wasn't so sure about the recovery arc.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Jason said a lot in regards to riser pressure that I will totally second. One can't arbitrarily state that, even in general, riser pressure goes down as size does. This may apply to some parachutes, but I can promise you it does not apply to my two Velocities. If anything, my 75 has higher riser pressure than my 79. Both have nearly twice the front riser pressure of my Stilletto 107 in my staff rig. Still there are plenty of little ways you can trick your canopy into lower riser pressure in a turn. Lots and lots of people set up in deep brakes directly over their entrance point, then let up on the toggles, then harness-steer heavily into the turn while pulling in that one front riser. The key to not letting the riser get pulled out of your hand is simply not giving it any slack. Slightly letting up on a riser mid-turn will get you more back under that canopy. If anything, to dial your dive steeper, simply pull the opposite riser down to maintain course. ONce you start letting them up, it's nearly impossible on some canopies to stop the motion.

Chuck

[andy2 0]

great info chuck, thanks, but can we arbitrarily say that a canopy designed for swooping is going to have lighter riser pressure than a manta 288? Those things are hard as shit to muscle down, I couldn't see holding that for more than 5+ seconds!

You suggested going into deep brakes before going to fronts, is this utilizing the "surge" one experiences directly after letting up on deep brakes? How deep is deep? Almost stalled out, or like half brakes?

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[eames 0]

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...can we arbitrarily say that a canopy designed for swooping is going to have lighter riser pressure than a manta 288?

That's the point; no, you can't arbitrarily say that a canopy designed for swooping is going to have lighter riser pressure.

My VX 109 has higher riser pressure than any bigger canopy I've ever jumped.

Jason

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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great info chuck, thanks, but can we arbitrarily say that a canopy designed for swooping is going to have lighter riser pressure than a manta 288? Those things are hard as shit to muscle down, I couldn't see holding that for more than 5+ seconds!

Andy ... I don't know about your student gear setup, but when I was renting student gear, the risers didn't even have dive loops or dive blocks. So using the front risers was pretty much out of the question. If your gear doesn't have the dive loops or blocks then that would explain the difficulty you're having with the front risers. But let's also not forget that your student Manta is almost twice as big as my Sabre2 and more than three times as big as the pocket rockets that Chuck pilots. So naturally you'll have more riser pressure.

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You suggested going into deep brakes before going to fronts, is this utilizing the "surge" one experiences directly after letting up on deep brakes? How deep is deep? Almost stalled out, or like half brakes?

I think it's fine for you to be asking these sort of questions (it shows that you want to learn). But if your profile is correct, lay off worrying about landing with your front risers for the time being. Also, keep in mind that I'm in what guys like Ron and BillVon would refer to as "in the dangerous phase of their canopy skills progression" as I do have several hundred jumps and do push the envelope more than what I did when guys like Chuck saw me at Eloy back in December (not sure if Chuck even saw my landings). So I'll try to keep my ego in check as I know I'm not jack shit when it comes to swooping.

Now if I understand the monkey correctly with that last sentence when he talks about being in deep breaks, he's referring to the jumper setting themselves up just prior to turning onto final (a hook turn) and flaring their swoop. This is something I ironically was thinking before Chuck wrote this that I need to get better at. Knowing how my canopy will perform (how much altitude will it lose in the various turns) so that I can land where I want to land. I'm pretty good at hooking a turn and swooping a line, but I can get much better at my altitude awareness so that I touch down exactly where I want to touch down during my swoop just as the canopy is finishing it's recovery. I tend to hook too high (better than too low) and usually lose the speed of the turn and then have to struggle with the hard front riser pressure. But having this problem is better than finding myself in the corner with no altitude to play with.

Of course if I misinterpreted Chuck, I'm sure he'll let me know.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Andy and Steve both: At altitude is where you do all this experimentation. Hop and pops from altitude can be great learning jumps. As to the "how deep in brakes" question, just go up there and see for yourself what works best. Always starting at a known altitude, then checking it again after each maneuver. Rob posted earlier that he does a lot of pullups to get conditioned. That is a fantastic plan. Especially for someone who has not yet built up the degree of specialized "risering" muscle tone from practical application. My method? Riding my hot-rod Harley extremely fast and having to keep a death grip on that fucker.

Chuck

[Viking 0]

oh i thought you got that from climbing trees and swinging from the hiiiiigh branchs!

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

[raymod2 1]

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You suggested going into deep brakes before going to fronts, is this utilizing the "surge" one experiences directly after letting up on deep brakes?

Letting up on your brakes results in accelerated flight which decreases your apparent weight and decreases riser pressure. It is the same principle that causes riser pressure to increase when pulling out of a dive except the direction of acceleration is reversed.

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]I think it's fine for you to be asking these sort of questions (it shows that you want to learn). But if your profile is correct, lay off worrying about landing with your front risers for the time being.[/QUOTE]

of course, I do like messing with fronts at altitude though, its fun to make the canopy go fast

For landing though Im all business just trying to work on accuracy, naturally.

I love to collect info though, that makes the day that I actually start swooping that much more fun.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[rhino 0]

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There is no general answer. Don't be impressed by the fact that Rhino can site a whopping one example.

I haven't tried to impress anyone Eames. I don't care to. That can be left up to you pro's.

Apparently you have taken my posts out of context. I will take this to PM's and maybe then you will understand what it is that I said.

Rhino

[PhreeZone 20]

My Jedei riser pressure is a lot higher then my Cobalt, even though the Cobalt is 15 feet larger.

Its the design of the canopy. You can alter the weight balence points of a canopy by altering where the cascades are, the line length, the planform, the trim angle, the airfoil shape. Sizing plays a part in this, but there are a TON of factors that determine the front and rear riser pressues. Loading even plays a HUGE part on the same size canopy.

I've jumped 21 different canopies now, played with some of them really hard and some only a jump on them. They are all different. You can't make a broad call and say "smaller is lighter" or "larger is lighter".

If you want to REALLY learn canopy controls and riser pressues... go jump a Lightning and do some realy CRW. Holding risers for 2/3's of a skydive will build muscles like you've never had before.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[PhreeZone 20]

Simple experiment if you want to see how a slight alteration in the canopy can make impacts on the riser pressure (Only do this as an experiment and only if you are willing to chop it). Add extra links to the rear risers or the front risers. The will change your trim angle a lot and will make the canopy fly different. It might be a slight difference, and you might not notice some of the differences, but if you do side by side flying and follow the leader exercises under canopy you can notice a difference.

CRW Dawgs use extra links in the rears to increase the glide angle so they can dock on sinking formations easier.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rhino 0]

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Sizing plays a part in this, but there are a TON of factors that determine the front and rear riser pressues. Loading even plays a HUGE part on the same size canopy.

I agree..

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[ManBird 0]

Definitely. Several line adjustments took a lot of pressure out of my Sabre. When I've worn weights with it, I've found it to be noticeably lighter, as well.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Phree made an interesting point. There were several people a few years ago who went and competed in the first Venezuela meet who were making subtle trim changes by using different size rapides on one side (front or rear) and either Slinks or smaller rapides on the other. There were also people around that time that were experimenting with longer outside lines in an attempt to flatten out their canopies. I posted something about this in the "old" dropzone.com forums after talking to Joe Trinko about it. It used to be fairly common in competition, but I don't know anyone who has done it, or at least talked about it, in the past couple of years. These changes in angle of attack not only affect the glide, they also affect the way a canopy handles in risers. Once again, this is dated information, but it used to be fairly common in competition circles.

Chuck

[Casch 0]

Just a quick question. Is it possible to pull the front risers down too much? And possibly bring the canopy under you so that you could fall into it?

[andy2 0]

or collapse the canopy if youre diving through turbulence? Would front risers make canopy collapse more likely? (not trying to hijack your question, casch!)

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...