Auryn 0 #1 March 9, 2003 I have a question about efficiency and lift generation.. I have been doing 90 degree risers carving turns for about the last 20 jumps or so, and am having a great time doing them.. I have boiled things down to 2 distinct techniques and I want input on which is the best.. I have a jonathan 150 I am loading at 1.25:1 (185 lbs out the door) and I have 250ish jumps. 1st method. 90 degree riser turn at 100 feet or so, holding it until just before I flare, higher than normal at about 20 feet. This uses the toggles to level the canopy out and then I use the toggles to control the swoop (short swoop, I know.. but I have learn somewhere) 2nd method. 90 degree riser turn a little higher and quicker, letting off the riser higher and the canopy levels out on its own at my desired swoop height.. I then only use the toggles only to control the swoop (albeit a short one) and land soft at the end. I am able to generate more speed this way, and I think it's the more efficient way to do things.. am I right ? Thanks !! Bryan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #2 March 9, 2003 definately let the canopy plane out before flaring (alti providing of course) you will end up getting longer swoops rather than just going streight to your flare from your riser... start a bit higher and do the same slow carve let our as slow as you initiate it and the slowly transition to the flare... by all means stick to the 90 until you can put the beggining and end of your swoop where you want it (consistantly and safely) -yoshi ps have someone video your landings and watch them over and over.. its a great tool to see what you are doing and its fun to just see yourself also!_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #3 March 9, 2003 Method two is efficient, method one is dangerous. Glen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sarge 0 #4 March 9, 2003 Disclaimer: I will not argue with anybody the issue of lift and efficiency being in direct correlation to speed. I have two concerns, regarding your question, that relate to lift and efficiency that seem inherent to your objective of increasing swoop distance. Please be mindful that there are countless variables. The first is that not all canopies will 'swoop' the same. I have some modest experience under a Samurai and a (early) Jedei. None under a Jonathan. This might be better a, "How to squeeze perfomance out of a Jonathan from a 90 turn @ 1.3?" Because your recovery arc sounds verry modest in comparison with the Samurai and more so to Jedei; 1st Method would not be desireable... Or for that matter a bad habit to develop on canopy skill development. I could elaborate, but suffice to say, assuming your talking about 'front' riser input you are diving the leading edge, as opposed to if your talking about 'rear' riser input you're dragging the trailing edge. The leading edge dive requires more input to correct; timing/sensing/feeling is critical. which brings me to concern #2. My objective in achieving a safe execution of a performance generating turning maneuver is to relate the idea of canopy manipulation into the pendulum concept. A 90 may always be a "short" swoop for you on that wing? The reason may be that 'short' is relative or it may be that you're missing it's sweet spot? Do you have the most ideal shift in your straps for that wing/harness? Are you in headwind too long before you catch the crosswind? Can you feel where in the pendulum you're at when you hit bump or flare height? The importance of being keenly aware (from experience) of its recovery arc, suspended weight position in the pendulum and angle of attack cannot be understated! The well executed 90 may be all the performance somebody may ever desire for themself under a given canopy. I'll close with saying that smooth inputs (even if fast) are never "quicker" because "quicker" sounds wayy too much like 'jerky' 'guessing' or 'OH-Shit!' The, "more efficient way to do things" in skydiving/swooping should always begin with the question of where may the waste occur? Or better yet, "How can I avoid getting wasted?" .-- I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auryn 0 #5 March 10, 2003 cool!! thank you very much for the input.. I was afraid to ask a simple question I was 90 percent sure about the answer but wanted to be definate about, and risk looking dumb in the process... I appreciate the lack of flames and the provision of information! I have spent a lot of time talking to some experienced people about this, and am doing the progression they recommend and encourage.. I guess Im just learning and want to talk about it and get more input. This stuff is too much fun ! Blue Ones ! Bryan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #6 March 10, 2003 Either method is actually fine.. Point is when you get to the altitude where you will plane out let off the front risers. This applies in a carve or in a dive.. Just be safe my friend... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #7 March 10, 2003 Method one is an easy way to get a broken femer, method two is a better way to swoop or work on distance. If your having to do 5 things at once its easy to forget to do one and I'd hate for that one thing to be either drop the riser or flare.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #8 March 10, 2003 They are both easy ways to get a broken femur... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #9 March 10, 2003 QuoteThey are both easy ways to get a broken femur... ya, i think it should of been said "number 1 is a easier later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #10 March 10, 2003 True... Shouldn't have to bump the toggles to level out.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #11 March 10, 2003 QuoteTrue... Shouldn't have to bump the toggles to level out.. What about a canopy that has a negative recovery arc?alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #12 March 11, 2003 Just keep in mind that the less input you use, overall (including your risers inputs), results in less deformation to your flying surface...this is max efficiency. Any deformation reduces the overall efficiency of the wing, but of course we need to use some (in the real world) to "adjust" for our imperfect flight. In an ideal world, you'd let the canopy fly in full flight, start a huge carving harness turn, way high, using nothing but input from your hips, that you would let up on as you came around the corner on final. The resulting transfer of the wing coming back level would result in lift that would flatten the slope out right as your feet come in contact with the ground and you'd gently transfer your weight off the canopy (thus keeping it flying) and onto a smooth surface, sliding along until you stop. That, is near perfect efficiency. And while we may not get there with what gear we use/skills we have currently, it shows that reduction in wing distortion is the best way to maximize your glide. What I would get from this is that less is more... Maybe not safer, but more efficient. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #13 March 11, 2003 QuoteWhat about a canopy that has a negative recovery arc? In that case I would bump the toggles.. lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
