dsbbreck 0 #1 March 5, 2003 Looking to try/buy a crossbraced canopy. I've got 1600+ Jumps, currently jumping a Samurai 120 for the last 400 jumps. I weigh 160 lbs, 180 w/gear. Want to get to 2:1 ratio this season. I do about 500 jumps a year. Real current. Looking for advice. Should I downsize again before trying a crossbrace.........try a crossbrace at my current size........or downsize into a crossbrace. I'm conservative and don't take big risks, I've been hurt bad, but I don't like the idea of continously changing canopies, and there aren't that many people at my DZ with crossbraced canopie to borrow for a few jumps. Thanks for any advice.David "Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutist 2 #2 March 5, 2003 Quote I don't like the idea of continously changing canopies, and there aren't that many people at my DZ with crossbraced canopie to borrow for a few jumps. That's where demos come in handy. Try one and see how you like it... if you feel comfortable with it then maybe try one size smaller & see how you like that one. Large boogies are good for this sort of thing because there are manufacturers present with demos to hand out. If you don't travel to large boogies then talk to some manufacturers on phone and have them mail you demos (takes a bit longer this way but it's quite effective.) Besides all of that... crossbraced canopies should be easy for you to handle. They don't spontaneously dive at the ground the way some people seem to fear. fly it around, flare it without stalling it... it's that simple. Just leave the dive loops alone until you feel competent to experiment with them. =] Chris Warnock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JGarcia 0 #3 March 5, 2003 Ok, here we go! I know I'm going to get flamed for my opinion, but here it goes: From your current experience, currency, and carefull approach, I would say downsize into a cross-braced canopy. (Waiting for the Downsizing Nazis to reprimand me) . If you are ready, and I think you will know it if you really are, you can downsize in to a cross-brace and manage to stay healthy. Know that you will be jumping a wing that can KILL...but I'm sure you understand that already from jumping your Samurai. If you do not respect the wing above your head it will kill!! Like Parachutist said, the cross-braced canopy will not dive out of the sky and kill you spontaneously, it will require you to place the input that can maim/kill. Oh, have I mentioned that swooping can kill??Yes, you should be very profient at flying your current wing--comfortably, and consistently nailing your 180's, 270's, 360's without getting yourself in the corner. This has all been covered in this forum. You say you've been hurt before, and that will keep you more aware. I've had a fairly quick progression (which I do not recommend): Current canopies are Xaos-27 93 ft^2, and Velocity 90 ft^2, with an exit weight of about 185lbs. Like you I am extremely current, and I treat swooping as the most dangerous, yet most rewarding part of my skydive. I am extremely technical about my approaches, and have no problems bailing out of my turns if everything in the picture is not 100% what it should be. And I know shit can still go wrong! I am no expert on swooping...hell, but I'm working on it.Parachutist had great advice in telling you to Demo several canopies before you finally buy. Both Precision Aerodynamics and PD have excellent Demo programs. I have no experience with Icarus Canopies' demo program (HooknSwoop??). Demo a crossbraced 120, then work your way down over several weekends. It may seem a little expensive at first, but you may find out that a cross-braced 120 is where you want to stay for another season. Or you may fall in love with a 93 or 90! Fly them first, stay within your ability, and most importantly, stay alive. So I now feel that I should have some sort of disclaimer after saying all this, but I don't. Merely opinions, that many will disagree with. I'm sure Hookitt, Listo, SkymonkeyOne, Skygod7777, HooknSwoop, and many others in this forum with a great deal of swooping experience will have very sound advice. If you don't hear from them, PM them! Cheers, --JairoLow Profile, snag free helmet mount for your Sony X3000 action cam! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #4 March 5, 2003 LMAO.....don't take advice from me, I almost killed myself on jump # 156 by flying @ 1.7 on a viper 120.I think that what JGarcia has said makes pretty good sense. You need to evaluate for yourself if you are ready for something. You can always take into account what others have to offer, but you are the one that has to get yourself on the ground safely. As much as advice and suggestions can help, there is no excuse or safety net that will save you from poor judgement. I would say that if you can land your current canopy in any given scenario and you are 100% confident in your ability beyond any shadow of a doubt, then demo a X-brace. This is what I did. I have demo'd a velocity and a VX and both of them to be highly exciting rides. The main thing that I noticed right off of the bat was that jumping from 2.0 on a stiletto to 2.3 on a velocity was one hell of a radical difference. Even the same when I jumped the VX @ 2.2. When you downsize, you will not only have to learn how to handle a completely different canopy, you also have to learn how to handle the increased wing loading. After talking to a few highly knowledgable swoopers, I learned that the Xaos27's peak handling wing loading falls in around 2.1. From what I hear a VX is right around the same, maybe just a little higher. I can't say much for the Velocity as my research was geared mostly towards the 27 cell planforms. Personally, I am ordering a Xaos27 "custom sized" to fit the exact wing loading that I desire. Having jumped the higher wing loadings I know what my capabilities and limits are now. The best thing you can do is to get with some highly experienced cross braced pilots somewhere (preferrably a canopy school), let them assess your skill level and help to guide you to your selection. There is a lot of talent to learn from out there in regard to X-braced canopies. In this day in time, there really isn't any need for anyone to try to be a pioneer anymore. The way I look at things is this....you can take your time to make a good decision and regret the rest of your life how long it took to make it....or.... you can make a rash decision and spend the rest of your life regretting how little time you took to make it....its up to you. Common sense and vigilance will keep you healthy.Remember, spring fever is hitting everyone right now. Don't let it get the best of you. Good luck brother, be safe ......and HAVE FUN! ListoLive today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #5 March 5, 2003 The original poster, in my quite-extensive expeerience would say that downsizing one size and going to a cross-brace is what I would do (or already have done). Whether or not you get different "bottom ends" from those mains, I would tend to keep my "alternate" main on the more infrequently borrowed fancy. I currently jump a Velocity 79 as my main parachute, though I keep a Velocity 75 in my "sport" rig. While I keep the sport rig a bit more heavilly loaded, I get quite a bit longer distance out of my less-loaded 79. Competiton wingloads (with any success) range from wingloadings of 1.8 thru 2.2. Any more and your parasitic drag takes away from your turn. There is a point in your downsizing where you ultimately have to deal with diminishing returns (in the way of distance scores, etc). Once you realize that you can totally rule under a seemingly-large main, you will be able to get your technique dialed. I actually upsized one size for competition this year for he added benefit in accuracy rounds, so keeping the smaller main for AFF/coaching/birdman, etc is fine. The only thing that sucks is packing the new ZP! Chuck Blue Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JGarcia 0 #6 March 5, 2003 Quote The only thing that sucks is packing the new ZP! Damn, i hear that! PD Zero P is freakin' slick!Cheers! --JairoLow Profile, snag free helmet mount for your Sony X3000 action cam! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #7 March 5, 2003 Quote Damn, i hear that! PD Zero P is freakin' slick That's why there's guys like me, packers, who can handle the new ZP and would love to pack for you...(for a small fee, of course). --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cheneyneel 0 #8 March 5, 2003 If I were you I would take my time before I bought a cross-braced canopy.... Not that you cant handle it just the fact that there seem to be new X-braced canopies coming out.. I really think that by the mid summer there will be a couple more choices for you to buy.. SO if you really have to buy one soon by a used one for cheap, even if it is not quite the wingloading you want heavier/less what ever.. The three major X-braces are all pretty much equal no matter how much you hear people say bad things about others.. I like to jump them all... Just dont spend a lot of money and then some great canopy comes into production and you wish you bought it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #9 March 5, 2003 You can wait and wait for the new imporved latest and greatest. Since there will ALWAYS be a newer latest and greatest, you may wait forever. Ciao for now... <== strange that rhymes ??My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
geanky 0 #10 March 5, 2003 What happened with the Cobalts???????? learn to fly in 3d Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #11 March 5, 2003 They're still around. They are not Cross braced though so they don't fit in to this. .My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #12 March 5, 2003 QuoteThey're still around. They are not Cross braced though so they don't fit in to this. . I believe he was asking what happened to Chuck's Cobalt's. Chuck is sponsered by PD now and flies the Velocity when competing. KrisSky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #13 March 5, 2003 OOooohhhh My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cheneyneel 0 #14 March 6, 2003 actually they(the makers of the cobalt) came out with the Onyx just a couple of weeks ago.. They claim it to be w 36 cell X-braced With B Germains new canopy soon we will have 5 count them 5 X-Braced canopies that rock on the market to choose from.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JGarcia 0 #15 March 6, 2003 Quote soon we will have 5 count them 5 X-Braced canopies that rock on the market to choose from.. Not to be nit-picky, or anything, but as I count them, I see Seven: 1) Precision Aerodynamic's Xaos-21 2) Precision Aerodynamic's Xaos-27 3) Icarus' Extreme FX 4) Icarus' Extreme V 5) Performance Design's Velocity 6) Atair's Onix 7) Big-Air's Sensei Five Parachute manufacturers, though...Wouldn't be surprised if Aerodyne jumps in there with one at some point as well.Cheers! --JairoLow Profile, snag free helmet mount for your Sony X3000 action cam! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #16 March 6, 2003 Quote Aerodyne jumps in there with one at some point as well I can see it now, a crossbraced Triatholon...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cheneyneel 0 #17 March 6, 2003 well that just strenghtens my case.. I was only counting manufacturers.... I think that I am going to request a demo for an Onyx in the next week or two just for the hell of it.. I know that some guys down at Spaceland i think have jumped them but i dont know anyone else who has... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #18 March 6, 2003 QuoteI think that I am going to request a demo for an Onyx in the next week or two just for the hell of it.. I know that some guys down at Spaceland i think have jumped them but i dont know anyone else who has... the onyx they jumped won't be the one out on the market. that one has very heavy front riser presser, and the rears were "bow" out like your break lines should be. they new one they said they built had more hanging off the rears. this is what dan told me at PIA. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #19 March 6, 2003 QuoteNot to be nit-picky, or anything, but as I count them, I see Seven: 1) Precision Aerodynamic's Xaos-21 2) Precision Aerodynamic's Xaos-27 3) Icarus' Extreme FX 4) Icarus' Extreme V 5) Performance Design's Velocity 6) Atair's Onix 7) Big-Air's Sensei Five Parachute manufacturers, though...Wouldn't be surprised if Aerodyne jumps in there with one at some point as well. well, isn't there a crossed braced that is made over seas?? like the nija by parachutes de france. and there is alsp a canadian company that makes a 27 cell canopy. i can't remember who it is, but i saw on while at Lakes whales over PIA, some guy had one. and i heard a russian company has vx copy. but i heard that on rec.skydiving from my dad, and am not sure if it is true. but if it is, that would be 10 manufactors that would be selling crossed braced canopys. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #20 March 6, 2003 Quotewell that just strenghtens my case.. I was only counting manufacturers.... I think that I am going to request a demo for an Onyx in the next week or two just for the hell of it.. I know that some guys down at Spaceland i think have jumped them but i dont know anyone else who has... Actually they are at Skydive Houston. PM IMGR2 for more info on the onyx he is expecting his to arrive next week.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #21 March 6, 2003 Quote 1) Precision Aerodynamic's Xaos-21 2) Precision Aerodynamic's Xaos-27 3) Icarus' Extreme FX 4) Icarus' Extreme V 5) Performance Design's Velocity 6) Atair's Onix 7) Big-Air's Sensei Parachutes de France - NINJA That is cross-braced.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #22 March 6, 2003 I thought the PdF Ninja was grounded last summer, was the grounding lifted?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #23 March 6, 2003 I don't know if it's been lifted, but this is the letter that PdF sent out regarding the canopy http://www.apf.asn.au/apf_admin/downloads/rigging/pdf/pdf_ninja12-07-02.pdf-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #24 March 6, 2003 QuoteI thought the PdF Ninja was grounded last summer, was the grounding lifted? i don't know for a fact at all, but at PIA they had some canopy hanging in the corner of the both. i think it was the ninja, like it was all redesigned maybe. but everyone at that booth seam to be kinda cocky, and no one came over to talk to me about the canopy, or there rigs, so i left, and didn't come back to there booth. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jussi 0 #25 March 6, 2003 Ninja is still grounded.and about the russian fx copy, it´s real, i have seen advertisements of it. Jussi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
