Swooping in the World Games and Olympics

[listo 0]

I just got off of the phone with Lyle Presse. He just got back from Brazil yesterday and told me that he and Jim Slaton have succeeded in getting swooping into the 2005 World Games.

Yes.....you heard correct! Swooping is also likely to be in the 2012 Olympics as well!

Ya.....FREAKIN HOOOOOOOOOOOOO BABY!
Lyle and Jim will be in Atlanta at Cedartown for the PST Advanced Series Qualifier and Skills Camp #1. Lyle told me that they will be giving the exact details of what is taking place as far as world recognition of swooping at that time.

As it stands right now, swooping will be in the 2005 World Games!

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[SkySlut 0]

Yep, they got back yesterday...he apparently had a case of montezuma's revenge...dont drink the water or put the ice cubes in your cocktails for godsake!!! He is feeling much better now...I made him have a few adult beverages last night...

[listo 0]

Man......this rocks! I am so freakin stoked!

yeah....he sounded a little under the weather when I talked to him I thought it might have just been a celebration that went wild last night!

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[SkySlut 0]

well, we were up pretty late last night...but that is nothing unusual for lyle. I dont know how he does it. he only sleeps a couple of hours a night...workaholic.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

I just got off of the phone with Lyle Presse. He just got back from Brazil yesterday and told me that he and Jim Slaton have succeeded in getting swooping into the 2005 World Games.

Yes.....you heard correct! Swooping is also likely to be in the 2012 Olympics as well!

That would be cool and it might open up the eyes of many Whuffos. I mean if the half-pipe is an Olympic event, why can't swooping be one.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[listo 0]

Well, my view was that the Olympics were originally setr forth for athletes of all nations to join at a given place every few years to participate in what was then to be current athletic games. It was a way for the world to have one point in time where war wasn't the focus of competition.

After all, new sports have been added to the Olympics for ages. It is just time that swooping be added because it is a spectator sport. Unfortunately, skydiving itself is really hard to produce a spectator crowd for. Most people simply wouldn't understand what it is all about. However with swooping, the general public can see first hand what the main goal is. It was only a matter of time before it was recognized. Swooping is a sport all its own and I have a feeling that the more comps we have where the general public can see it, then the more people we will have getting into the sport of skydiving itself. This is just a win win situation. Everyone can enjoy what it is all about.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[PhreeZone 20]

We complain about the number of people that die every year now that have a perfectly good canopy over thier head, what was it 10 + last year alone? Now you are going to be showing swooping as the primary introduction to the general public? Better sit back an prepare body bags for DZ's that will be flooded with whuffos that are only out since they want to be in the Olympics. All they have to do is just pull this side then pull both at the same time right?

Only reason I did high school track was that year was the summer Olympics and it was suddenly cool to be doing that type of stuff. Getting new people into skydiving that are starting for the wrong reasons is a bad idea. Expect canopy regulation to follow if incidents start climbing with the increased amount of jumpers.

There is a market for swooping (I swoop for my self, I could give a shit less if anyone watches), its the RealTV, Fox Sports type market.

Sit a hard core whuffo down and show them the PSN 2001 video, see how they last before they get bored.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I think Olympic pond swooping would be a big hit and yes there will be people who would all of a sudden become interested in the sport and show up at their local drop zones to take skydiving lessons. Some of them may think that they could all of a sudden become world class swoopers, but there are many sports out there (downhill skiing comes immediately to mind) that have a training and proficiency hierarchy one must obtain before one reaches that goal of being world class in their sport.

Now I do wonder what the public would say when the Olympic favorite biffs into the pond and kills themselves. But then how is this any different from the Olympic downhill ski racer? It has happened, where world class ski racer has crashed and severly injured themselves and/or died during a high profile event. What about America's favorite race car driver Dale what's his name?

Skydiving and pond swooping are extreme sports, but so are many other sports. I would love to see it recognized as an Olympic sport. But then what do I know?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[listo 0]

well the simple answer to this obvious concern for all of us is this. DZ's would have to institue madates that would say that if you aren't someone that needs to be swooping, then you would be grounded for the day, weekend, month or whatever if you do something unsafe. I honestly dont think that we need to hold ourselves back from something this great because of what some jerkwad might see and try to emmulate and then kill himself while trying it.

If that were the case then the PST would have to shut down right now. I know a lot of beginning jumpers that have seen the 2001 PSN on discovery and came out to learn how to jump just so they can do that kind of thing. One jump on a skytruck and they quickly learned that the guys they saw on TV were actually bad asses and then they learned to respect those people just that much more.

Don't get me wrong here. I know that people are going to object to swooping making it big in the public spot light, but what is more important. Personally I think that this is the best thing that has happened to skydiving in general since it began to become safe enough that any ole joe schmoe could come out and learn how to do it.

If you don't want to take swooping to a world level, then you don't have to, but please don't knock those of us that do.

One of the things that any swooper has to do is be a diplomat of the discipline. Actually this goes for skydving in general. If you are good at something then you need to be prepared to offer sound advice to anyone and everyone that needs or asks for it. One of the great things about the Jim Slaton's and Chuck Blue's of the world is that they are always willing to help out anyone that asks for or needs advice. They aren't sitting back saying that we don't need to go bid in the world spot light because people are going to get hurt, they are setting examples of maturity and discipline for others to learn from.

If you were to go up to Tony Hawk and tell him that you have never skated before and you want to get on a 15' half pipe and try a 720 twist with a double back flip he would laugh in your face and tell you that you need to work your way up to it. The same goes for swooping, if you see a newbie getting interested in swooping, take them aside and explain how dangerous it is and how to take the proper steps to getting there.

Don't be selfish when it comes to skydiving disciplines. Who knows, that person that you thought might kill themselves might end up teaching you something one day.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[PhreeZone 20]

>Now I do wonder what the public would say when the Olympic favorite biffs into the pond and kills themselves.

Why do you think helmets for Ski use are now Snell qualified most the time? The public and the officiating bodies were pressured to make it a safer sport. Same thing with Nascar. Adding restrictor plates to slow the cars down on fast tracks and increase the safety margin. There is nothing stoping someone from going out and straping on skis for the first time and trying to make it down a double black diamond. Ususally they get life flighted off the mountian after they hit a tree only a bit down the hill, if they don't break their leg trying to get off the lift. Whats preventing people from racing Nascar every weekend? Money and you have to qualify for it, you can race the smaller courses but they have safety requirements too there.

How do you increase the safety margin of swooping? Require full body armor and certified helmets? Make huge nets that prevent low hooks? Regulate who can fly what canopy?

Its not the top 1-2% I'm worried about... its that other percentage thats wanting to get to that level is what I'm worried about. Generally in something like Skiing or snowboarding you find out quick that you don't have the skill level to hit certian hills since you fall constantly, but how can you tell if you don't have the skill level to swoop?

As to thinking this is silly.... how many times has someone asked on here how to swoop with less then 100 jumps? I can think of a dozen off the top of my head and thats not including all the people jumping canopies beyond limits that most other people talk about.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[quade 4]

Quote

I think Olympic pond swooping would be a big hit and yes there will be people who would all of a sudden become interested in the sport and show up at their local drop zones to take skydiving lessons. Some of them may think that they could all of a sudden become world class swoopers, but there are many sports out there (downhill skiing comes immediately to mind) that have a training and proficiency hierarchy one must obtain before one reaches that goal of being world class in their sport.

I agree.

The concept that somebody is going to watch a swoop meet and head out to the DZ the next weekend with the concept they'll be swooping in the next week is pretty silly.

I know it didn't take me more than about 1/100th of a second after seeing the old ABC Wide World of Sports "agony of defeat" ski jump guy to know that wasn't going to be something I'd be trying my first time down a hill.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Its not the top 1-2% I'm worried about... its that other percentage thats wanting to get to that level is what I'm worried about. Generally in something like Skiing or snowboarding you find out quick that you don't have the skill level to hit certian hills since you fall constantly, but how can you tell if you don't have the skill level to swoop?

I thought that's what the canopy police were for.

Seriously, you do have some good points. But I still think pond swooping and World Cup downhill racing is something that can be compared like apples to apples. One small mistake in either discipline and the competitor is toast.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[listo 0]

Quote

Generally in something like Skiing or snowboarding you find out quick that you don't have the skill level to hit certian hills since you fall constantly, but how can you tell if you don't have the skill level to swoop?

This one is easy. First of all canopy manufacturers have set standards for jump numbers. Icarus says that you need 1,000 ram air jumps to buy a VX. PD, Precision, and Atair also have similar standards. Honestly, you aren't really likely to have someone go out, buy a HP canopy, not talk about it and then go up and try something radical. If you ever do see someone do something like this, then I believe that it is common sense and a general consensus that this individual was incredibly stupid. Can we prevent any or all accidents from happening......no!

This goes back to what I said earlier. Responsible swoopers need to keep an eye out for those that are going to try things and do our part to inform these souls of the dangers and proper ways of doing things. If you don't want to help them out personally, then tell someone that does or tell the individual in question to go talk to someone that can help them. Turning your cheek and getting irritated with someone'e lack of knowledge is about as ignorant of a concept as I have ever heard of when it comes to swooping or skydiving.

I am sure that there isn't one person out there swooping today that hasn't asked questions or recieved tips from more experienced people so why should they sit back and say that they are only in it for themselves and refuse to help others.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[billvon 3,090]

>Honestly, you aren't really likely to have someone go out, buy a HP
>canopy, not talk about it and then go up and try something radical.

This exact thing kills half a dozen skydivers a year, so I think it's pretty likely.

>Responsible swoopers need to keep an eye out for those that are
> going to try things and do our part to inform these souls of the
> dangers and proper ways of doing things.

I agree, even when they get called canopy nazis.

[billvon 3,090]

>I think Olympic pond swooping would be a big hit and yes there will
> be people who would all of a sudden become interested in the sport
> and show up at their local drop zones to take skydiving lessons.

I think so too, and I think that would be bad for the sport. There is more to skydiving than numbers.

>Skydiving and pond swooping are extreme sports, but so are many
>other sports. I would love to see it recognized as an Olympic sport.

I hope I don't see that. We escape a lot of regulation because we are out of the public's eye. When someone proposes a regulation on canopy size, right now 99.9% of the US population will say "Huh? What? Who cares what those crazy people do?" Imagine their response to the same question after 30 million people watch the US olympic hopeful break his back during an olympic event.

[eames 0]

Quote

I hope I don't see that. We escape a lot of regulation because we are out of the public's eye. When someone proposes a regulation on canopy size, right now 99.9% of the US population will say "Huh? What? Who cares what those crazy people do?" Imagine their response to the same question after 30 million people watch the US olympic hopeful break his back during an olympic event.

Yeah, I can just picture Mr. Wuffo Couch Commando watching the Olympics saying, "Ohhh! Did you see that dude smack? I knew he didn't have enough altitude to use his rears... and he should have stuck with the Velocity 79 loaded at 2.1 instead of the 75! And when did he start doing that 180 to 360 crap?! Everybody knows that turn makes accuracy more difficult! We need to regulate swooping and skydiving." Etc., etc..

I've watch Olympic sports such as skiing, and I've seen people crash, but the first thing that came to my mind was not "those Olympic caliber athletes shouldn't be allowed to use those skis, or run that course." I thought, "s/he messed up."

Jason

[listo 0]

Quote

Imagine their response to the same question after 30 million people watch the US olympic hopeful break his back during an olympic event.

Ok, sure there is going to be a huge debate on this subject. However, is a world class skier going to be ridiculed for wearing skis that were too small so he could go faster? He might.

Is an Olympic hopeful swooper going to get ridiculed for flying a canopy that is too small so he could go faster? He might.

The thing is this, there are skiers out there everyday getting hurt because they are trying to use smaller skis, go faster and get better. If they try it on their own then they increase the chances of getting hurt or killed. Well, swooping is the same way. If you are going to try to go faster and get better without seeking help then you are going to increase your chances of getting hurt or killed.

No matter how hard we try to keep people from getting hurt, it is going to happen. Do I care if someone gets hurt or killed while skydiving......absolutely! I don't want to see that happen to anyone, anywhere. The thing is that it is going to happen no matter what we do to try to prevent it. The same way with skiing, people are going to get hurt and killed no matter how many safety regulations are implemented.

The thought of keeping swooping out of the public spot light for these reasons is ludicrous in my opinion. We can't help it if some ignorant soul goes out and kills himself with a little rocket ship of a canopy much the same we can't help it if someone goes up on a hill with skis about three inches shorter than he has ever used before and tries them out on a black double diamond course.

Personally, when I get on a plane full of skydivers, I know what everyone is jumping. If I go to a strange DZ, I ask what everyone is jumping and how many jump numbers they have for two reasons. First I want to know who and what I am flying with. Second, I want to know if I am jumping with some 300 jump wonder trying to learn how to swoop a VX-75 when his last jump was a PD 290.

We have to use sound judgement and keep an eye on others as well as ourselves. It is going to be impossible to keep people from getting hurt or killed while skydiving. I really hate to say that but it is true. The technology has become so incredibly reliable that gear malfunctions aren't killing people anymore......it is bad judgement that is killing people. Chances are that if some crazy nutcase is out there that is going to kill himself with a tiny canopy who hasn't even made jump number 1 yet, then eventually he will find the sport regardless of if the Olympics or World Games host swooping.

Honestly, I see this as a way to help people understand the safety needed to land a parachute which is something that really isn't stressed nearly as much as freefall techniques.

My vote is that this is a great thing for our sport.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[PhreeZone 20]

>help people understand the safety needed to land a parachute which is something that really isn't stressed nearly as much as freefall techniques.

Accuracy jumpers do a better job of this and they have scores that are easly judged.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[listo 0]

You have a really good point there. The general public doesn't know a VX-75 from a PD 150. The only thing the general public is going to see is who is consistantly better at what they are doing.

Skydivers are the only ones that are going to be critiqueing what Luigi, Andy or Chuck are flying for competition. If the regulation comes from anywhere, it is going to be from the sport itself. The general public is just going to see a bunch of talented canopy pilots doing what they are good at.

I use those names loosely because I am going to beat all of them anyway. They just don't know it yet.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[listo 0]

Quote

Accuracy jumpers do a better job of this and they have scores that are easly judged

Honestly, I believe that accuracy is more than likely going to be a part of what is going to take place in the Olympics as well. It is just another discipline of canopy flight that the general public can watch and appreciate. I would love to see it be a part of it as well.
After all, skiiing isn't just downhill going mach 5, it involves crosscountry and long jumps.

Now that brings up an interesting subject too. Lets look at the long jump. Those dudes are flying and landing without a parachute at speeds just like swooping and sometimes even faster but you don't see a beginning skier going out and trying to long jump do you.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[billvon 3,090]

>Yeah, I can just picture Mr. Wuffo Couch Commando watching the Olympics . . .


As an example I'll use Dale Earnhardt's death. Now, Mr. Couch Commander is no more going to start NASCAR racing than he will start swooping. But listen to what one magazine said about Earnhardt's death:

"As the racers of NASCAR returned to the track Friday with heavy hearts, the sanctioning body revealed stock car racing legend Dale Earnhardt was killed after his seat belt failed. . . .

Marlin, whose car touched Earnhardt's car an instant before the crash, received intense criticism and death threats following the announcement of Earnhardt's death.

Earnhardt has always worn an open-faced helmet.

"I think it could have played a role in his injuries," Bohannon said. "If he had had protection over his chin and in this area of contact, the forces would have been different to his body. He would have had different types of injuries. But certainly in this particular type of case, a full-face helmet would have been a benefit."

--------------------------------------------------------------

Some fallout from this:

As NASCAR and experts continue to agree to disagree on several things, including the extent of Earnhardt's injuries and whether the HANS (head and neck restraint system) would have saved The Intimidator's life, drivers, fans and sponsors are getting more frustrated.

----------

The challenge to NASCAR will be to add enough resistive materials in the first 3' of the car so that it acts like a properly designed Crumple Zone for the weight of their cars. And if that means using some form of honeycomb composite materials to do it, then so be it.

Racing will never be a 100% safe sport, but NASCAR certainly has a lot of room for improvement. And they can start with the noses of their cars.

NASCAR, are you listening?

-------------

(the fans will) remember how his car swerved suddenly to the right and was broadsided at 190 miles an hour by Ken Schrader’s car. How it was pushed along for hundreds of feet. And how still it was inside the car as paramedics cut the roof off just to apply c.p.r.

It was too late.

It is too late to change the rules, too late to re-think the reasoning behind the rules.

The sport lost its greatest driver.

The race winner lost his car owner.

The second-place finisher lost his father.

The fans lost their favorite.

The sport may have lost its credibility.

---------------------------------

OK, so now we have Mr. Whuffo watching Johnny Rocket swoop his Crossfire 78 through the slalom. He's got a shot at the gold medal! Here he comes - ooh, his canopy twitches and he hits the side of the pond at 65mph. He's not moving! Mr. W watches them haul Johnny out of the pond, his body limp. He's DOA at the hospital.

CNN reporter 1: So, Jim, the US has lost its best chance for a second gold this year. What could have caused this tragedy? Could it have been turbulence?

Swoop commentator: Well, you know, Crossfires have been suspected of being a bit more susceptible to turbulence before, but there was no turbulence that the other competitors saw on the course.

Reporter 1: And I noticed that some other competitors wear a full face helmet. Why wasn't Johnny?

Commentator: He said he didn't like them; they affected his peripheral vision. A lot of competitors don't like them.

--------------

SPORTSTODAY SPECIAL REPORT
Early reports today indicate that Johnny Rocket might have survived had he been wearing a full face helmet, rather than the helmet he was wearing. He was wearing a Gath helmet, an untested helmet with no safety approvals. Also under investigation is Johnny's canopy, a design that has been said to collapse in turbulence. The Olympic safety committee is considering requiring full face helmets for all competitors, and is recommending they do not use Crossfires.

------------------

USPA SENDS OUT NOTICE TO ALL SKYDIVERS
As a result of concerns from Johnny Rocket's death, USPA will begin to require full face helmets at all swoop competitions. They will also strongly recommend full face helmets to canopy schools, and are considering adding the requirement to the BSR's.

"We always look out for the safety of skydivers and the image our sport projects," said Clay Fowler, head of USPA's safety and training. "With this change we will increase the safety of our competitors and reassure the public that swooping is not an inherently dangerous sport."

------------------

ICARUS SUES OLYMPIC SAFETY COMMITTEE

Icarus Canopies today announced that they would be filing a lawsuit against the Olympic Safety Committee, who they claim has unfairly slandered their corporation by claiming that one of their canopies was unsafe.

"The Icarus Crossfire is as safe as any other high performance cross-braced canopy on the market," said Joe Speed, the company's new CEO. Sales of their canopies, which had been going through the roof since the beginning of Olympic swooping events, dropped by half after the OSC made their recommendation that competitors not use their canopy.

----------------------

What's Mr. Whuffo to think about all this? All he knows is that the US lost the gold because Johnny wasn't wearing a helmet, and that unsafe canopy probably had something to do with it. If they pass some more rules, why, the next year the US might bring home the gold! Anyone have a petition he can sign?

[Zenister 0]

..Bill, you make a very strong argument for why democracy sucks..every opinion counts as much as any other, no matter how ignorant the individual holding it. Government from the couch..

i would love to see skydiving get more exposure (and therefore more sponsorship) but not at the cost of greater regulation by wuffos.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[eames 0]

Well, we could argue the "what if's" ad nauseam.

I would take the chance of having a couple additional regulations to see a few skydivers basking in the glory of an Olympic medal, rather than just sitting back and accepting the status quo out of fear.

Plus, regulations imposed on NASCAR drivers would have no effect on everyday drivers.... Why would regulations imposed on swoopers in an Olympic event have any effect on skydivers in general?

Jason

[billvon 3,090]

>I would take the chance of having a couple additional regulations to
> see a few skydivers basking in the glory of an Olympic medal . . .

Honestly I am just as happy to see them basking in the glory of a World Meet medal. Being on TV and being seen by millions isn't the point, the point is being the best in the world. For the people who want to be seen by millions there's always Hollywood stunt work.

>Plus, regulations imposed on NASCAR drivers would have no effect
> on everyday drivers.... Why would regulations imposed on swoopers
> in an Olympic event have any effect on skydivers in general?

It wouldn't, but it would sure have an effect on swoopers - especially since they are already the leading cause of fatalities in the sport.

Another point - we all get annoyed when know-nothing whuffos criticize our sport. Imagine 90 million people becoming know-nothing whuffos who all have a comment on why Johnny Rocket lost the gold. It happens in every other sport.

[listo 0]

ok Bill...your point stands to have some relavance. However I am greatly and strongly in support of what the PST is doing along with the IPC to bring swooping to the world for everyone to see.

Look at it from this angle. When people first started jumping from airplanes for sport all of the pilots of the world told them how crazy it was and how it was going to make flying have a bad name. Much the same you sound like right now and look at what skydiving has grown into today. It is a wonderful sport that families go out and enjoy as well as individuals who do it for personal rewards.

Who is to say that 30 years from now that some genious that isn't even born yet isn't going to come up with an autopilot of some sort to bail a swooper out if they get behind the curve on a dive. I say why limit what we are doing. Lets go for the gusto and make it bigger and better. After all, the AAD wasn't even a thought until people started skydiving on a large scale.

We can debate this until we are all blue in the face. It won't make things go away. Skydiving is a great and wonderful sport and I try to find new ways to take it to the public every chance I get. Everytime I go out to a club or bar I have 50 business cards and I make it a point to pass every one of them out before I go home. Are you telling me that I am bad for the sport because I am passing out info to as many people as possible.

Think of how much revenue having canopy skills in the Olympics would bring to our sport. Oh yeah, let me see........more revenue somehow has always lead to more R&D. If the manufacturers as well as dropzones start getting more income from something, well that just means that we will be able to skydive that much longer. I am all for it!

I say we need to go out and buy billboards advertising for sponsors right now to spread the word about the newest sport to join in the great games of the Olympics and the awesome thrill for those who are good enough to be invited there. I say lets get some support so America can have the best team in the world instead of downplaying it because somebody might get hurt.

Hell, while we are at it, lets just go ahead and abolish downhill skiing, the long jump and oh yeah.....the biathalon (somebody might get shot) Oh yeah, archery is pretty dangerous. Let's just abolisht that too. Bobsledding is pretty dangerous, wanna get rid of that as well? I am sure I can come up with some more sports that could involve really high speeds in which people could get hurt or die. Give me some time, I will come up with a list of things that the Olympic committee should do away with because they are just dangerous.

Long live the swoopers of the world and the accomplisments they have set out to achieve. Which we are doing. If you don't want to swoop competitively and accept that competition swooping may eventually have regulations then don't do it.
After all, competition RW, Free Flying, and accuracy all have regulations and restrictions that don't affect the sport as a whole. What would be different for competition canopy swooping.

BLUE SKIES,
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG SWOOPS,
Listo

"A closed mind is a wonderful thing to waist"-me