weegegirl 2 #1 December 30, 2002 Forgive me if this has been covered before. I looked back quite a bit and couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. When is somebody "ready" to start messing around with swooping and hook turns, etc. I am insanely conservative, but I'm starting to feel like I'm ready to try something a bit different. What are some of the things you should definitely have accomplished before moving on to a "different" kind of landing style? What are some of the first steps? I plan on asking around my DZ before doing anything, just wondering if there are any dz.com opinions on this subject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #2 December 30, 2002 Hello! With 120 jumps under your belt you should have some experience with straight-in front riser approaches. Anything more than than that should be done progressively under the guidence of an experienced instructor. There is a tendency to develop bad and potentially dangerous habits when "learning -on -your-own" Don't waste time or your money and risk getting hurt...get some instruction. ( I wish I had, it would have saved me time, monet and grief) Good Luck!!"Slow down! You are too young to be moving that fast!" Old Man Crawfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #3 December 30, 2002 Good advice!! Start with double front riser approaches to get the feel of a HP landing without over doing the risk. From there progress SLOWLY to 45 deg single front riser turns to landing. GET SOME EXPERIENCED coaching. Not saying you have to pay for it but if there is one of those several thousand jump swooping hot dogs at your DZ, talk to them about it and ask for help. It could save you a lot of time, pain, trouble, and medical bills over the "teach yourself method." I know I should have probably killed myself several times during the early days. I was just plain lucky and came out without a scratch! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #4 December 30, 2002 Stay on a fairly large, more forgiving canopy. But make it sure its a canopy with some recovery arc. Canoies like the Tri, original PD's and similar canopies have a short recovery arc so you have to turn way low, grab a differnent canopy and it will result in broken legs while learning.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #5 December 30, 2002 Hey Liz! Before you get to using both front risers on final I would recommend doing some CRW and explore the canopy's performance range up high, above 2000' AGL. By that I mean make front riser turns and see how long you can hold the front riser down and how much altitude you lose in a turn. I think you will find after releasing the risers the canopy will recover pretty quick to level 'full flight' mode. The Triathlon is fairly docile and will lose what ever momentum you build pretty quickly. I would recommend learning swooping on a higher performance canopy after you have 300-400 jumps. You'll develop some low-altitude awareness skills on the Triathlon but you'll also learn some bad habits. Since it isn't a 'swoop' canopy, you need to take it fairly deep in the corner (close to the ground) to swoop, which you will have to un-learn if you move to a higher performance canopy. Don't make low turns. If you think it might be too low for a turn or an 'impulse' tells you that you can make the turn and return to level, DON'T make the turn. Swooping, as a skill, is about knowing absolutely the performance range of your canopy. Ken "Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #6 December 31, 2002 Quoteyou'll also learn some bad habits. Since it isn't a 'swoop' canopy, you need to take it fairly deep in the corner (close to the ground) to swoop, which you will have to un-learn if you move to a higher performance canopy. I have found the EXACT opposite to be true. I never had to unlearn anything. I didn't turn to low....in fact it took me a while to turn low enough when I went from a PD 190 to a Stiletto 170. The PD 190 was an Excellent learning canopy for me. Very forgiving, as canopies go. Just my .02C but I would MUCH rather see someone learn on a "slow, docile," square canopy than a "swoop" canopy. They will live longer...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #7 December 31, 2002 Quote in fact it took me a while to turn low enough when I went from a PD 190 to a Stiletto 170. So you didn't really learn how to swoop until you jumped a Stiletto. I think you proved my point about learning on a higher performance canopy.Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #8 December 31, 2002 Liz listen to what these people have to say.... Learn to do CRW...It will teach you loads about your canopy.(any swooper who has not done any CRW, give it a try, you will be amazed). Learn on a big canopy....you don't need a small or high performance wing to learn to swoop....You will not get as much distance out of a Tri160 than say a ST160. but the extra material will keep things slow for now, and give you an extra saftey margin. I can out swoop a lot of people with a TRI when they are on a Stiletto....It's the pilot, not the wing. I can do a good swoop on a TRI, they dig out the Stiletto to keep in one piece and they loose. Yes, if they have a clue they will beat me, but thats why I have a V96 and ST107 as well. The biggest thing for me to tell you is don't rush yourself. You said you were conservative, thats good. It will keep you alive. Can you land 100% of the time standing? Can you land in the peas 10 out of 10 times. (someone will say that you can't alwasy do that due to traffic, but watching for traffic is part of learning to swoop.) If not....don't push it till you can. If so, learn the "flat" turns. These will save your ass. Learn to handle the speed of a swoop by using both front risers in a straight in approach before you add the danger of speed, and an un-level wing. When you do start to do turns start with slow carving turns 45,90,180. Don't move to the next increase until you can land 100% in the peas, and on your feet. Most will tell you that this is way to long to wait. Well the largest segment of our group that has killed themselves under canopy this past year had 300 jumps and a 1.5 wingload. In fact only one person in the low turn deaths had over 600 jumps. Take your time and be safe. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weegegirl 2 #9 December 31, 2002 Thank you, Ron! And thanks to everybody for giving your 2 cents. This is all really helpful information. As a newbie to the sport (only one year), I've heard a lot about people really breaking themselves for doing stupid things (low turns, etc), but not enough about how to get started safely. People seam so intimidated by new people starting to learn that they don't give ANY information at all. I've watched people who started at the same time I did go out and try stuff with little to no instruction. It scares the hell out of me. Amen to taking it slow and easy. I plan to be in the sport for a lonnnnnng time, so who cares if it takes me an extra 100 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #10 December 31, 2002 Liz, you have a good attitude about this. If it takes an extra 100 jumps, 1,000 jumps, or 10,000 jumps. This is not a race. There is no prize for doing things sooner than others. I have almost 10 years,and 2,500 jumps. 400 or so on Accuracy gear 120 or so CRW over 1600 on Stiletto's, Velocitys, FX's, Jedei's..ect. 370 on a Raven II. at a .77 to 1 (that was a hot shit canopy where I was jumping at the time). I continue to learn on every jump. If I had it all down, and knew it all...I'd quit. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #11 January 1, 2003 QuoteSo you didn't really learn how to swoop until you jumped a Stiletto I got some VERY nice swoops out of my PD 190. Suprised the shit out of many a 1000, 2000, 3000, + jumper. "Learning on a higher performance canopy" is suicide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #12 January 1, 2003 Did you really find the exact opposite to be true? Here are your words: Quote We have a lot in common. I went from a PD190 to a Stiletto 170. I went from 1.2 something to about 1.3. My "normal" approach was a 270 hook by the time I got rid of the PD 190. Going to the Stiletto is going to be a HUGE change. Not just in performance but in GLIDE ANGLE. I must have gone 150Ft further than I thought I was going to the first time I landed it. Laugh Another big thing to deal with was the amount of input to use on risers. On the 190 I would just haul one into my chest and hold it there until I wanted to come out of the corner. I had to learn to use smaller inputs....and to turn MUCh lower. That's what took me the longest to get. You have to turn Stilettos rediculously low compared to other canopies. Take your time....that Stiletto is dangerous. And then you claim: QuoteI never had to unlearn anything. So which is it? It sounds to me like you had to un-learn the habits developed flying the docile canopy. According to your words you had to learn how to deal with glide angle, landing accuracy, riser input, and recovery arc of the Stiletto. It sounds like you were flying the PD190 a little to far into the corner just to get 20'-60' of swoop. I have some skepicism about your conclusions for swooping a 7-cell which you apparently arrived at by flying 9-cells. Have you jumped a Triathlon? Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #13 January 1, 2003 Quote According to your words you had to learn how to deal with glide angle, landing accuracy, riser input, and recovery arc of the Stiletto Wouldn't you have to do that ANY TIME you changed canopies. Even two canopies of the exact same make and size will fly and open differently. Hell...I got my Stiletto relined and I'm having to re-refine my techniques because the flight characteristics changed pretty dramatically. I don't think I have to "Unlearn" any "Bad habits" that I developed while flying with the old lines. I think there is a HUGE difference in "Bad habits" and techniques that need to be adjusted to fit the current canopy. Quote I have some skepicism about your conclusions for swooping a 7-cell which you apparently arrived at by flying 9-cells. Have you jumped a Triathlon? What conclusions are those? No I sure haven't jumped a Triathlon but I have jumped the canopy they copied. A Spectre... Swooped just fine....flew a LOT like my Stiletto with some subtle differences in stability, turn rate, full flight glide, and toggle pressure. Very familiar "feel" to it though. Swoops nicely but it isn't close to the efficiency/performance of a Stiletto. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grasshopper 0 #14 January 2, 2003 Quote So you didn't really learn how to swoop until you jumped a Stiletto. I think you proved my point about learning on a higher performance canopy. although not directed at me, I also think this is completely wrong. I learned to swoop on a lower performance canopy (spectre) and got longer swoops on that than I did on my vengeance. the spectre forgave me when I did stupid things, when a higher performance canopy would not have. also, I just got the need to fly a 143r, a 7 cell f111, and I had no problem swooping it. I did not get much distance,but about as much as I got on a 270 degree turn on a sabre2 190 loaded about 1:1 (ok, a little less than 1:1) but by your reasoning, I should have swooped the zero-p 9-cell elliptical canopy farther, right? but I guess I will swoop my velocity 96 farther than any of those other canopies, so I should be learning to swoop on that. you might also of noticed that while I just named 4 pd canopies, I did not mention the stilleto. imho, the stilleto is not a very good canopy to LEARN to swoop on, because of it's recovery arc. hooking it, and then finding yourself flat and fast 10 feet above the ground is not a very fun feeling, knowing the canopy will do its' secondary dive, leaving you without full flare power on a canopy with a shorter control range. a die-hard pd guy, grasshopper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #15 January 2, 2003 You have one of the best swoopers around at Tecumseh.. Pick his brain. He flies a Orange Xaos90.. You know who I am talking about Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #16 January 2, 2003 Quote the stilleto is not a very good canopy to LEARN to swoop on, because of it's recovery arc. hooking it, and then finding yourself flat and fast 10 feet above the ground is not a very fun feeling, knowing the canopy will do its' secondary dive, leaving you without full flare power on a canopy with a shorter control range. Been there....done that....the first time ended with a "Fluid Dynamic PLF" right through the risers followed by incessant laughter. Could have been worse......The second time I actually saved it and landed on my feet because I had learned how to use harness input to keep it diving. It was still a "busy" landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weegegirl 2 #17 January 2, 2003 Quote You have one of the best swoopers around at Tecumseh.. Pick his brain. He flies a Orange Xaos90.. You know who I am talking about Right. And I plan on it. Unfortuanatly he's been in Seatle for a while and it's god damn cold out. I thought I'd do a little online research first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
