Zlew 0 #1 December 17, 2002 I've read a lot of posts in here asking what canopy swoops better...... the Xaos vs. Velocity or VX..... Stiletto vs. Crossfire, etc. etc. etc. In scientific conditions, I'm sure that specific wings will perform better than ohters. However, for %99 of the jumping population I think that the pilot is MUCH more important than the canopy. You have to know how to fly and make a canopy perform if you want it to work. If you surf is screwd up by say...hooking to low, or over inputting your canopy, you are not going to magically get another %20 out of your surf by going from a stiletto to a VX. Surfing is %80 pilot, and 20% canopy. Put me and JC up against each other in a comp. Put him under a Stiletto 150, and me under a VX46 (shudder)...... Pick any combo of canopies you like, and with in reason, I WILL LOSE EVER FUCKING TIME no matter how much better the wing I have is. I would argue that once you get to the point where Wing A, is really going to make a difference in your swoop over Wing B.... You will know it and not have to ask people on a message board. Until then learn how to fly your canopy well and make it perform for you. Most pilots don't get even half of the performance out of their wings.....so getting a wing that has a %3 better swoop potential really isn't the best place to get your performance. just something to think about Z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #2 December 17, 2002 Couldn't agree with ya more!! I think what we are seeing though is swoop capability being the principal contributor to overall quality of a canopy in many people's eyes. I'm not sure they are thinking "if I get this canopy I'll be able to swoop it badass", rather they are thinking "if this canopy is capable of badass swoops, it must be an all around great canopy." The funnier phenomenom I see here is how we are all so loyal to our own brand of canopies. I always defend the Crossfire, you are a huge advocate of the Stiletto, and god knows the Cobalt jumpers out there love to sit on their soapboxes. It's a little childish, but like I said, I'm as guilty as the next guy. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zlew 0 #3 December 17, 2002 Yes and no.... I see a lot of people here with the same mindset as people who like fast stock cars. I'll buy a TransAm because it is .2sec's faster than a mustang in the 0-60.... Many of them don't understand that that is what teh CAR can do, it doesn't mean that is what the driver can make the car do. Put a good driver in a car that is 2 sec's slower the the 1/4 mile next to a novice in the faster car...... guess who wins? People want to have the baddest thing out there and love to be able to think that they have the most high speed shit out there. Which is fine, but the best way to make things high speed in canopies....is to have a skilled pilot. It is true that the BEST canopy BY FAR is the one that you just paid 1400 buck for (in some cases 2300 bucks for.......). there are LOTS of great high performance wings out there. The corssfire is a great canopy (as is the cross2). Did scare the shit out of me once when one tried to fold up on me....... but that's another discussion all together. Z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyguy 0 #4 December 17, 2002 I think that the pilot is MUCH more important than the canopy. Agreed. Put me and JC up against each other in a comp. Put him under a Stiletto 150, and me under a VX46 (shudder)...... Agreed But for the sake of argument. Hypothetically, since that is the only way it can be fair. Take "YOU". Give you the next twenty jumps as practice for accuracy swoop distance. On your 97 Stilleto. Then give the other "YOU" 20 jumps on a 98 Xaos, with decent coaching. Then a 3 jump distance competition. You (Stilleto You) lose. Sorry man, it is a better wing. Vx, Fx, whatever, they all beat you. It is a different animal, but when you learn what it wants, you cannot stop it in less distance then the Stilleto would have allready quit, good pilot of course. ---------------------------- bzzzz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zlew 0 #5 December 17, 2002 I agree with you My point is that it seems that a lot of people want a quick fix....and there is a lot more to performance than the wing...infact the wing should be secondary...a complement so to speak to the pilot. Another point is that you increase your risk factor and narrow your margin of error when you try to force performance by getting a more aggressive wing than by learning the basics and sharpening your skills. I'm NOT saying people should not go agressive. I just think the focus should be on skills first, and as the skills get there, then let the wings get more aggressive. Do you see what I mean? Z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #6 December 17, 2002 I posted this in the beginning of December under the thread "Canopy Progression - the Pro's way" and I am re-posting it because it seems to fit here nicely, probably better in this thread than that one. Speaking of canopy progression and performance, I remember reading an article that basically stated (paraphrased) the following: "as people progress downward in canopy size seeking higher performance, they don’t realize that they have not even come close to the performance limits of the canopy they had been jumping" I think there is a lot of truth in that statement. Something has to be said for jumping a canopy for a longer time and really learning how to fly it before going small really fast. The mistakes you make while learning on a slightly larger canopy don’t bite nearly as hard as they do on the smaller ones. Even in a time of rapid development of very good parachute technology. The thought above was from a number of years ago and I still believe that it is true today. It is like the recent discussion about the detachable D-bag. Would an average swooper feel, or for that matter, get the performance out of it that a "pro" level swooper possibly would get/feel. For that matter given that there is a great difference in the capabilities from the best of the best down to the lower level of the "pro" qualified swoopers, would all of them notice the difference? The best and all too common example is seeing a swooping machine canopy being piloted by a really good pilot. Next, see the same wing piloted by a so-so pilot, no comparison. Approach is probably not as smooth, maybe a little stab or too much rear riser, but most assuredly a shorter swoop. Sure the wing is a higher technology and aerodynamically is designed to surf like mad but if you don’t have a high level of the "how too" it is not going to do you any good. The other question to ponder than is why do many people get the swoop machine? Pressure to be the “Big Dog” at the DZ?? Desire to have the hottest or the latest and greatest?? What do you think? Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyguy 0 #7 December 17, 2002 Cool, We're on the same page. I agree totally with your post, and the one just before this one. I do get tired of hearing of guys downsizing to get a longer swoop. It doesn't really work like that. You guys know that though. I learned to swoop by pounding into the pond on my 170 Sabre. I didn't downsize until I almost had to hold it on the water with front risers. Learn, get good, then downsize. I don't know about the black panties thing though. ---------------------------- bzzzz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #8 December 17, 2002 I 100% agree with this... Too many people go out and get the "Super Swooper X" thinking that it is the magic ticket to long swoops. It's not toys, its knowledge. Learn evrything about your old canopy before you get the new one. But the larger problem is a person's ego. Most people don't need a Mustang GT. But I have one. I wanted one, it was as simple as that. Why? I like the way it looks, I like the way it drives, a friend of mine has one. This is the same thing that makes people buy the cool new canopy before they are ready.. The difference is that I am not 16 years old with a Mustang GT...I'm 30, and have been driving for almost 15 years. People don't like to think this way...If I could of had the Mustang at 16...youre damn right I would of had it. Education is the key..... But so is peer preasure. When I am asked by a guy with 100 jumps what to get, I don't tell him to get a Stiletto. And when I hear some crazy shit on this forum, I chime in. I try to do my part....If everyone who cared did also, we could maybe help someone, and if not I can sleep at night, because I tried. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #9 December 17, 2002 Quote Put me and JC up against each other in a comp. Put him under a Stiletto 150, and me under a VX46 (shudder)...... Are they measuring crater size and dirt displacement? Yep....it's all about the pilot. I'm sure there were more than a few snickers when I used to talk about doing 270 hooks and swooping my square PD 190. However.....the reaction when I went to a new DZ was usually more along the lines of "That was impressive." Just because they had never seen anyone do that on a square F-111 canopy. I have done 60-80Ft in toe drag range on that canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
