How low is too low to do flat turns in final?

[NicoNYC 0]

I s/w my AFF instructor. He was giving me the skinny on doing flat turns in altitudes below 300feet and above 100feet. He was telling me that you can do flat turns down until 100ft. As soon, as you hit 100ft, you have to go back into full glide. I believed him, it all makes sense and what not. However, I keep reading and hearing about turns in low altitude resulting in death. What's more, In ground school they taught us to never execute any turns below 250 ft. So my questions are: Was my instructor correct when he said you can execute flat turns above 100ft. Then, when you reach a hundred ft. you have to go back into full glide. Why is this not mentioned in ground school if it holds true? Can someone please shed some light on this dilemma.

How many hits of adrenaline can you take?

[wmw999 2,556]

One-on-one conferences with your instructor (or a canopy instructor) are exactly how you should be learning right now. Because the answer changes with experience.
When you're 3 years old, "never go into the street without holding mommy's hand" is a really good instruction. But it's inadequate when you get older. Some rules that are given to students are there because they are pretty wide perimeters, and can survive some lack of judgement. But now you're developing judgement, and don't necessarily need the same wide perimeters. But where your perimeters are is something that only you can determine with an experienced advisor.
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PhillyKev 0]

As a beginning jumper you don't want to make any turns close to the ground because you lose altitude during a turn (and pick up speed). You don't want to hit the ground during that altitude loss or speed increase. The main rule is you don't want to initiate any turns that you won't be able to completely come out of before you need to flare. A properly executed flat turn does not lose as much alti as a single toggle yank. Your instructor has had the opportunity to observe you so may feel that your ability to execute flat turns is good enough that you can perform them a little lower than recommended for a first jump.

Listen to your instructor, but just remember, don't initiate any turns that you can't complete and return to full, level flight before you need to flare. Until you can accurately judge where that is, play it safe and stop turning higher up.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I tell my students I don't want them doing any turns more than about 90 degrees below 300 feet unless it is to avoid hitting an immovable object. Flat turns are fine down to the point where you need to let your parachute fly in order to land safely. Still, large student canopies can be flown and landed in pretty deep brakes and even in flat turns without any ill consequences. Problem is, most students are too amped up at low altitudes because that is when they first notice how fast they are actually travelling. It is for that reason that we preach not to make any radical turns below 500 feet, etc. It is also for that reason that we have our students practice PLF's in case they MUST land in a flat turn to avoid an oncoming car or a building. Do you follow me?

Chuck

[Luminous 0]

Quote

I s/w my AFF instructor.

Yes he was correct. Basiclly this is a turn while your braking your canopy. This allows for a MUCH flatter turn than the normal yank on right to turn right, as you were taught in ground school. I'm sure you've already thought through the mechanics of this. Your canopy is flying at 1/2 it's speed, (assuming 1/2 brakes), you initiate a right turn by letting up on the left toggle, which allows the left side of the canopy to speed up, resulting in a right turn.
In ground school you were taught to turn right by pulling right, left by pulling left. That's why no major turns under 250ft. If your on radio with a student and tell him "Flat Right Turn", 99.9%, (my guess), all the student will hear is "Right Turn" and yank down the right toggle. Hell, sometimes when you tell them "90 left" they yank down on the right toggle. Thats why flat turns are covered later by a JM, or another jumper.
I learned about flat turns by seeing on executed from the ground, and I had to ask the guy how he got his canopy to do that. You've obviously progressed enough so your JM feels your competent enough to perform flat turns now. The 100ft rule is also good since you need to have your canopy in full flight to get the best flare from it.
But don't get careless, you can hurt yourself in a flat turn as bad as a full turn. However a flat turn is much easier to recover from and generates less speed. Hope this helps.
Now: "I s/w my AFF instructer."?? I sleep with....??
Blue Skies/Black Death

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

[NicoNYC 0]

Quote

Quote

One-on-one conferences with your instructor (or a canopy instructor) are exactly how you should be learning right now. Because the answer changes with experience.

No matter what, I always ask questions. I try to never think that I'm good enough to not ask questions.

Quote

When you're 3 years old, "never go into the street without holding mommy's hand" is a really good instruction. But it's inadequate when you get older. Some rules that are given to students are there because they are pretty wide perimeters, and can survive some lack of judgement. But now you're developing judgement, and don't necessarily need the same wide perimeters. But where your perimeters are is something that only you can determine with an experienced advisor.

Sounds like you've got a good head to become an instructor yourself one day.

How many hits of adrenaline can you take?

• Quote

[NicoNYC 0]

Quote

Quote

As a beginning jumper you don't want to make any turns close to the ground because you lose altitude during a turn (and pick up speed). You don't want to hit the ground during that altitude loss or speed increase. The main rule is you don't want to initiate any turns that you won't be able to completely come out of before you need to flare.

You said it right there. I'm not going to be doing any kind of flat turns below 300 feet until I have at least a couple of hundred jumps or at least until I get my own rig and know the characteristics of my main.

How many hits of adrenaline can you take?

• Quote

[NicoNYC 0]

Quote

Quote

Still, large student canopies can be flown and landed in pretty deep brakes and even in flat turns without any ill consequences. Problem is, most students are too amped up at low altitudes because that is when they first notice how fast they are actually travelling.

I'm still flying a student main and sometime a 240-260main. I'm still not up to trying flat turns yet below 300ft yet. I do them all the time above 2000feet but I'm not quite ballsy enough to try that below 300ft. However, if I have to steer away from an obstacle above 100ft, I will execute a flat turn to save my bones.

Quote

Do you follow me?

Crystal clear Captain!

Chuck

How many hits of adrenaline can you take?

[PhillyKev 0]

You may need to. A properly executed flat turn is the best way to avoid obstacles when landing. Just keep practicing them, you'll eventually see that you can perform them quite low to the ground (even during your flare) but don't push it. It shouldn't take you a couple hundred jumps to get to that point, though.

Remember, power lines are only about 20' up. But if you're headed toward them, you'd better start turning....preferably a flat turn.

[NicoNYC 0]

Quote

Yes he was correct. Basiclly this is a turn while your braking your canopy. This allows for a MUCH flatter turn than the normal yank on right to turn right, as you were taught in ground school. I'm sure you've already thought through the mechanics of this. Your canopy is flying at 1/2 it's speed, (assuming 1/2 brakes), you initiate a right turn by letting up on the left toggle, which allows the left side of the canopy to speed up, resulting in a right turn.

I learned about flat turns by seeing on executed from the ground, and I had to ask the guy how he got his canopy to do that.

My jumpmaster told me that you execute a flat turn by just pulling one toggle down 1/4 brakes and leave the other toggle in full flight. Is there a difference?

Quote

You've obviously progressed enough so your JM feels your competent enough to perform flat turns now. The 100ft rule is also good since you need to have your canopy in full flight to get the best flare from it.

My progression has nothing to do with my b@lls. I still wouldn't try this unless I have more jumps.

Quote

But don't get careless, you can hurt yourself in a flat turn as bad as a full turn. However a flat turn is much easier to recover from and generates less speed. Hope this helps.

Thanks a lot. If I were to be careless or even allow myself to have my guard down then, I don't belong in the sport and I deserve to get hurt.

Quote

Now: "I s/w my AFF instructer."?? I sleep with....??

Hardy har har...it's I spoke with.

How many hits of adrenaline can you take?

[NicoNYC 0]

Quote

Quote

You may need to. A properly executed flat turn is the best way to avoid obstacles when landing. Just keep practicing them, you'll eventually see that you can perform them quite low to the ground (even during your flare) but don't push it. It shouldn't take you a couple hundred jumps to get to that point, though.

You're right, it may not take me a couple of hundred jumps. I meant that I want to have a considerable amount of experience before I get the nerve to do that. I'm just trying to keep it safe.

Quote

Remember, power lines are only about 20' up. But if you're headed toward them, you'd better start turning....preferably a flat turn.

This is an "Oh, Definitely!!!!".

How many hits of adrenaline can you take?

[Luminous 0]

Quote

Quote

My jumpmaster told me that you execute a flat turn by just pulling one toggle down 1/4 brakes and leave the other toggle in full flight. Is there a difference?

Yes, in the speed of the canopy. Using 1/2 brakes and letting up on a toggle gives a tighter turn than the method you describe. What method you use will depend on your current situation.

Quote

My progression has nothing to do with my b@lls. I still wouldn't try this unless I have more jumps.

Where did I mention your balls? Your JM was telling you about it so I took that to mean he thinks your ready. If you feel your not than by all means don't do it. You can practice these methods at a higher altitude to get the feel of them.

Quote

Thanks a lot. If I were to be careless or even allow myself to have my guard down then, I don't belong in the sport and I deserve to get hurt.

I wasn't saying you were going to be careless. If I offended you by stating the obvious, get used to it. I won't be the first. After your in the sport awhile you'll understand the necessity of it. Especially in forums such as this. And noone deserves to get hurt although many do it to themselves.

Quote

Hardy har har...it's I spoke with.

And get a sense of humor. You'll need it. Especially in forums such as this.Blue Skies/Black Death

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

[NicoNYC 0]

Quote

Quote

Yes, in the speed of the canopy. Using 1/2 brakes and letting up on a toggle gives a tighter turn than the method you describe. What method you use will depend on your current situation.

Makes sense. This is the method that I thought everyone executes when doing flat turns. I guess everyone has their own technique depending on their canopy.

Quote

Where did I mention your balls? Your JM was telling you about it so I took that to mean he thinks your ready. If you feel your not than by all means don't do it. You can practice these methods at a higher altitude to get the feel of them.

You're absolutely right. I think it may be a while till I try low altitude flat turns in final. Unless, of course, if the need arises to execute such low turn. I'll definitely practice when I'm above 2000feet.

Quote

I wasn't saying you were going to be careless. If I offended you by stating the obvious, get used to it. I won't be the first. After your in the sport awhile you'll understand the necessity of it. Especially in forums such as this. And noone deserves to get hurt although many do it to themselves.

I'm not offended at all. I'm saying that there are times when you're just not physically and mentally able to jump. If I am ever in such a state, I have to expect that something may go wrong and I may get hurt.

Quote

And get a sense of humor. You'll need it. Especially in forums such as this.

I hear ya Luminous. I totally have a sense of humor. Thanks for your tips. Everyone's comments here have helped gain an awareness of obvious dangers and have eased my mind about doing flat turns now. You're all a bunch of great people. Thanks everyeone!

Are you a JM (Jump Master not Jerk Meister) yet by any chance? You sound like you could be one.

How many hits of adrenaline can you take?

• Quote

[alan 1]

Quote

In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, in the speed of the canopy. Using 1/2 brakes and letting up on a toggle gives a tighter turn than the method you describe. What method you use will depend on your current situation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Makes sense. This is the method that I thought everyone executes when doing flat turns. I guess everyone has their own technique depending on their canopy.

A flat turn is initiated by smoothly applying downward pressure on one toggle. As the turn commences, you apply slightly less pressure to the opposite toggle, just enough to maintain altitude AND airspeed. Slight adjustments with either toggle can be used to control the radius and rate of the turn. If both toggles are eased back to neutral in a coordinated manner, the turn can be executed with very little loss of altitude and will recover at about the same airspeed as when the turn was initiated. It takes lots of practice and really has nothing to do with 1/4 brakes or 1/2 brakes, it is about applying pressure and feeling/seeing/hearing how the canopy is responding and then making smooth adjustments.

Going to brakes and then letting one up a little is a braked turn, not a flat turn. The difference is subtle but important in terms of lost airspeed and altitude. If you find yourself too low to complete the turn you can finish it in a flare, which you want to have conserved as much airspeed as possible for. You flare with both toggles from the flat turn positions but slightly faster with the outboard toggle to "catch up" with the inboard toggle. The real trick is to be very smooth and be ahead of the canopy. You have to fly it and not respond to it. Make it do what you want it to. Practice this a lot up high, every jump if you can safely. Most important is to land with your wings level and keep them that way. Do a search of my posts in the Incidents forum......there is a very recent one that I quoted a very nice posting to the rec.skydiving ng from Skratch Garrison. You must read it. If you can't find it, e-mail me and I'll forward a copy.

alan

[RichM 0]

I believe the post Alan refers to was taken to it's own thread and can be found here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=217044;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Rich M

[Luminous 0]

I stand corrected.

edited to add:
Alan, found the post your referred to. Excellent. A "Must Read".

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

[rendezvous 0]

I suggest you do practice them lower than that to get a feel for it because one day you might need to and that won't be the right time to be surprised by how it feels turning that close to the ground when the environment you are doing so is not really your usual.

[Snowflake 0]

I won't comment about what alttitude you should turn at. what I will suggest is doing turns up high in the "playground"(make sure you can make it back from the spot first) do flat turns,360's and 180s etc. Check your altittude before and after the turns this will give you a good idea of how far certain turns will drop you with out the ground there to hurt you

[Michele 1]

Another newbie here, Nico....

Know when I learned about flat turns? Jump #15. Know why I learned about flat turns? I ended up downwind at sunset....10-12 knot winds...huge PLF with loooooong skid marks in hardpan, and walked away with a scraped chin, shattered goggles, some little cuts and big bruises, and 2 broken toes. A friend of mine asked me "Hey, dingbat. Why didn't you turn when you realized you were downwind?" to which my reply was "because I was under 300 feet, and I was told to not turn under 300 feet". He looked at me, and told me "You're one tough chickie. You shoulda been going to the hospital. Next time, try a flat turn".

In pertinent part, my log book reads:
Ow.
Ow.
Ow, Ow, Ow.
Fuck, that was scary.
Must find out how/when to do a flat turn. WTF is a flat turn?
That's when I learned.

Moral of the story is simply this: learn how to do it. Practice it a lot. Way up high, do like 4 or 5 of them. Really see how to do it. Bring your comfort level down once you understand how much alti you lose in a flat turn. And maintain a comfort margin when using them. But never say never.

I have had to use it twice, once because someone cut me off, but that wasn't a 90 or 180, more like a 45, and I ended up landing crosswind. The other time was when I realized I had misjudged the wind, and needed to get back to the dz...so pushed it long downwind, and, at 200, made a 180....lost about 70 feet (so it wasn't so very flat, but still, good enough), and went to full glide and landed fine.

It is an important skill.

Just my .02, from a newbie. Take it for what it's worth.

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~