flaring a safire 2

[sandi 0]

I just got a safire 2 and I'm having trouble getting the flare right. My old canopy was a sabre and I had no problem with that. On the safire it seems like I still have too much speed when I get to the ground. Someone suggested that maybe I'm not finishing the flare but I've got the toggles down as far as they go. Is is possible that my brake lines are too long? Or am I just not flaring at the right spot? I've tried flaring at different heights, different ways of flaring (slow & continuous, 2 step, etc.) and I always still have too much speed. I have to either run it out or, more often, I end up falling forward.
Any tips for landing a safire 2? I'm loading it at 1.1 and I've done about 15 jumps on it so far.

[rgoper 0]

Sandi:

1) have someone film your landings, make sure your mechanics are right
2) have someonne else "test jump" your rig
3) you'll probably have to shorten your brake lines by at least 2" or so.

good luck.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[AggieDave 6]

Go do a hop-n-pop (or pull a bit higher then usual) and try taking a wrap then practicing a flare, see if it flares any better.

(taking a wrap: put your hands in the toggles then roll your hands so you wrap the brake line around your hand. not the best thing in the world, but you'll see if your brake lines are too long)

Do NOT do this low!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skycat 0]

You will probably need to shorten them, Icarus has been sending them out with the factory mark long enough to do front riser turns. I ended up shortening mine about 4 inches.

Try this next time. Grab your toggle up at the top where the line attaches, this is much better than wrapping the line around your hands. The way I do it is have the line go between your index and middle fingers, then practice flare, this as a general rule has allowed you to shorten your lines ~3 inches.

Fly it like you stole it!

[swoopfrog 0]

I've got 220 jumps on a safire 135 loaded at 1.25:1, here's my 2cent contribution to your problem... (I don't pretend to be a swoop lord btw...)
I found that this canopy needs some speed to get some nice and manageable flare power, either double front riser or 90 degree (or more ) carves. It makes the flare much easier and I can get 50ft swoops on a 90deg carve without running it out, cool isn't it???
If you've not done it yet, findout about the line lengh of you canopy:
the setup is correct if the lines are a little loose with toggles up, the canopy should not turn when you slightely pull down on toggle (1 inch or so). Double riser input should be stable: if you find out that it's stable when you leave the toggles up but it becomes bulky with toggles in you hands then the lines are too short.
then, search the forum for this:Procedure for front riser approach (look for Chuck's great input, thx dude and this: Next Step...90 Degree Front Riser (Chuck again)
alain aka swoopfrog

[swoopfrog 0]

oops, something I forgot:
If don't do it yet, you should pull down the slider at the bottom of the risers (not sure to make myself clear on this ) and loose up the chest strap. The canaopy will fly *much* better, the improvement is huge on mine!
Alain

[skygod7777 0]

i hear that pulling your slider down and loosening your chest strap only make a noticable difference on a highly loaded high performance canopy

[PhreeZone 20]

Loosening the chest strap/pulling the slider down should help any canopy, but its not always needed. My thinking is that if the canopy requires you to open it all the way up to fly/land nice then I probally won't be jumping it since I have big worry issues with falling out of the rig. Plus there is always those times where you don't have the time to worry about your chest strap (like big ways) and if the canopy can't fly well with out doing anything, then thats not cool in my book.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[swoopfrog 0]

skygod777 wrote> i hear that pulling your slider down and loosening your chest strap only make a noticable difference on a highly loaded high performance canopy

I could not tell you about highly loaded canopy as this one is the most radical I've flown so far Any way, doing it on my canopy definitely makes a difference...
phreezone wrote>My thinking is that if the canopy requires you to open it all the way up to fly/land nice then I probally won't be jumping it...
you can land the safire without doing it, but it's a bit more tricky: the flare requires more experience to be right. Once you get used to it it's pretty quickly done and you can always find 20 secs for that during your way down, no?
Phree zone wrote>...since I have big worry issues with falling out of the rig.
anyone heard of something like this? It doesn't sound very realistic to me, but maybe I'm wrong. (I'm not talking of removing the chest strap, just loosing it)
Alain

[PhreeZone 20]

On some rigs they do not have a end stop on the chest strap and if you let it out to almost the end it can pull through on its own and removes the chest strap. I'm also worried I guess about haing to chop under canopy and having the rig shift too far and not being able to find handles, having handles roll under the harness due to the slack. Thats my thoughts and mine alone, I know lots of others disagree with me.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[sandi 0]

On my next couple jumps I will definitely try out all of your suggestions and see what works for me.
Thanks so much for all the advice!

[billvon 3,077]

>I found that this canopy needs some speed to get some nice and
> manageable flare power, either double front riser or 90 degree (or
> more ) carves. It makes the flare much easier and I can get 50ft
> swoops on a 90deg carve without running it out, cool isn't it???

I have found this isn't true. You can flare any size safire with a normal approach; you don't need extra speed, although the extra speed will certainly give you a longer swoop (and will help you if you don't know how to land any other way.) For reference I've jumped Safires from 189 sq ft to 119; my current canopy is a Safire-1 119 with the brake line mod loaded about 1.7 to 1. I have never had a problem landing them 'normally.'

[billvon 3,077]

>Is is possible that my brake lines are too long?

Perhaps. After opening, pull your brakes down until the tail just begins to deflect. If it takes 4-6 inches for that to happen your brake lines are too long. 2 inches is just about right. If they are deflected before you touch the brakes then they are too short; too short brakes can cause the same problem.

[swoopfrog 0]

Billvon wrote>you don't need extra speed, although the extra speed will certainly give you a longer swoop (and will help you if you don't know how to land any other way.)
That's exactly my point:
I use to have Sandy's problem (ie running out too fast on no wind days) because my flare wasn't quite right (The lines were not to long and I actually ended lenghtening them up) . Then I started to give the canopy a little bit extra lift and extra rigidity with a double front approach (following Chuck's advice on this) and discovered fairly quickly that this way, I could swoop allong untill the canopy complitely stops me.
This experience has helped me to get a better feel of the canopy and I don't have to run out any kind of landing anymore.
I don't say that HP landing is the ultimate goal and that everyone should aim for that, just that a little bit extra speed-rigidity-lift helps when the wind doesn't...
Sorry if my first post wasn't clear, I just pretend to share my newbie experience with any newbie going through the same problems so that every one moves forward (plus English is not my native language ).
btw, what's the brake line mod on your Safire-1 119? I had to lengthen mine (3") to make front riser flying stable, are we talking of the same thing?

[alan 1]

Quote

That's exactly my point:
I use to have Sandy's problem (ie running out too fast on no wind days) because my flare wasn't quite right (The lines were not to long and I actually ended lenghtening them up) . Then I started to give the canopy a little bit extra lift and extra rigidity with a double front approach (following Chuck's advice on this) and discovered fairly quickly that this way, I could swoop allong untill the canopy complitely stops me.
This experience has helped me to get a better feel of the canopy and I don't have to run out any kind of landing anymore.
I don't say that HP landing is the ultimate goal and that everyone should aim for that, just that a little bit extra speed-rigidity-lift helps when the wind doesn't

Ummm, corect me if I'm wrong, but even when you induce the extra speed and lift, doesn't the canopy still have to slow down and cross the same speed/lift threshold that you have on a normal straight in approach with no extra or induced speed/lift? Wouldn't that mean that from that point on they would fly and land the same? So, wouldn't the extra speed just lenghten the surf *before* that threshold and have no real effect on the performance after it? Double fronts can teach you to surf longer and ease you in to faster, higher performance landings, but they don't teach you how to finish your landing. Learning the low speed performance characteristics of your canopy does that. You can/should do that up high. I guess, indirectly, the longer surf closer to the ground does contribute to learning slow flight, but it is a myth that induced speed will allow you to land better on a canopy that you *can't* land straight in.

alan

[KillerKimmy 0]

Quote

I found that this canopy needs some speed to get some nice and manageable flare power

I've been working on this the other day. I have the same problem as the guy who started this post. I got coaching from a GREAT Icarus Safire flyer, and found that I'm flying through the sweet spot of the flare. His landings (though other people on the DZ were running them out) took him maybe two steps after his swoop. Not a run or a jog. Thats how I knew he was doing it right.

I come in so fast (yesterday was a no wind day) that I flare too high (though I thought I was about twice the height of a person-the general rule for flaring says Scott Miller). But indeed I was too high, scared by my speedy approach. The video showed this. My coach said I was rushing the flare and by the time I reached the ground my swoop was through. I had swooped in the air, and not touched the earth yet. So my landings became dirty, stingy, and filled with PLF's from using it's flare power up too high and getting dropped.

I don't mess with the brake line lengths because I checked it in the air. I can flare it almost to stalling, (thats enough for my flare) and when I do a front riser turn with toggle in hand, it doesn't deflect the tail. They are just fine, and that is the way you can tell. Of course if you don't do much front riser stuff, you can always shorten them so you can cheat on the flare. It depends how you fly the canopy. Like adjusting a bicycle seat, and handlebars.

It's hard, but ultimately I had a student radio on again, and was talked down and through my flare.

I don't think that on a midrange canopy like the Safire or Safire 2 you need to build MORE speed to get a better flare. Sounds like you have enough speed already!

All my best for a better landing.