Why is Toggle hooking considered the devil??

[Viking 0]

I was just wondering why people dislike the practice of toggle hooking? Why are riser hooks prefered?? Keep in mind i know nothing about hook turns i am just wondering.
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver

[skymedic 0]

yeah? I'd like to know....I understand the basics why it'd be bad........just want a better view on it.....
Cheers....vasbyt
marc
"I have no fear of falling, I just hate hitting the ground"-The Badlees...

[diverdriver 7]

When you use a toggle you are turning by inducing drag. When you induce drag you will lose some speed until your attitude changes to pick up speed again. Using front risers to initiate the turning descent you aren't bleeding speed.
Also, when using toggle a new hooker may be too agressive and then "come over the top". At that point you are totally commited to letting the canopy plane out. Hopefully you have enough altitude to swing through. When using the front riser for the turn you need only let it up and go to toggles to start the flare if you find yourself too low.
Chris

[CReWpilot 0]

actually, it has more to due with angle of attack. When you make a toggle turn, you force the side of the canopy you pulled the toggle on to have a less agressive angle of attack. That is why a canopy turns (Brian G., i know you can give a much better explanation on this). So when you do a toggle turn, one side of the canopy is already pitched up. What happens if you need to bail out of the turn? Bad things. You basically only have one side of the canopy with all of its flare left. The side you turned with is already pitched up. A riser turn, on the other hand, does the opposite. Say you do a right toggle turn, it is accomplished by putting the right side of the canopy in a less aggressive angle of attack. On the other hand, a right riser turn, you put the right side of the canopy in a more aggressive angle of attack. Say you need to bail out, with a riser turn, you still have ALL of your flare left to try and save your ass. Anyway, i hope i haven't confused anyone, if i have, someone else please explain it better.

[prost 0]

One thing that they are not mentioning is that front riser dives produce much more speed when done correctly so that you get a much nicer swoop. Less danger and more benefit. It makes no sense to do toggle hooks.
William

[flyhi 24]

I'm sure someone will come on here and give the full aero explanation using greek letters and the word "coefficient", but my Cliff Notes version is, When you riser turn, you fly the whole canopy around. If things get ugly, you have the whole wing flying for you to try and get out of it. You can stab it, harness turn it, flare it, whatever works. When you toggle turn it, your whole canopy is not flying the same. If you toggle too low, you have to wait for the side with the toggle you pulled to "catch up" before you can start a full canopy recovery. Basically, you are committed at that point.
Bottom line: Riser turn = faster, more efficient, more outs.
flyhi
"To understand Mankind, you must look at its two root words; Mank and Ind."

[diverdriver 7]

Actually, I am exactly correct. I have a few years of aerodynamics training. When you bring a toggle down you INCREASE the angle of attack. This increases lift on that side and when you produce lift you produce drag. So the opposite side of the canopy "flies around" and a turn is initiated.
So when you say "When you make a toggle turn, you force the side of the canopy you pulled the toggle on to have a less agressive angle of attack. " You are incorrect. Less agressive? Actually, the angle of attack increase when you pull a toggle.
Chris Schindler
ATP/CFII
D- 19012

[bhale 0]

I can talk to both, as I have done toggle turns for many years, under high speed canopies. I have just recently, under Chuck Blue's recommendation, begun doing riser turns.
With toggle turns, timing is more critical: you have to make the turn allowing enough time for your body to swing back under the canopy, providing the speed. Turn too low, and your body and canopy hit the ground at the same time-not good.
I have found the riser turns to be much more dynamic, the turn makes for a much steeper rate of attack, while keeping your body better centered under the canopy. This does allow for more opportunity to dig out, if the turn is too low. Riser turns do provide much greater speed for longer swoops.
As a reference, I was jumping Jedei 120's, and now jump Comp. Cobalt 95's. Riser turns are where it is.

[Geoff 0]

Do you find that riser turns are more susceptible to instability (buffeting) due to turbulence? (I'm assuming the brake lines are long enough)
My personal conclusion is that there's a window of turbulence level where use of front risers is in advisable, but toggles would be OK (except for the other valid safety issues with toggle turns raised in this thread).
This is just my experince based on about 400 jumps with risers turns, but maybe only 30 or 40 with toggle turns. Various canopies: sabre150 and 135, spectre 135, safire 129, now Cobalt 105. Brakes plenty long enough in all cases.
Other opinions?
Geoff

[HowieD 0]

While the above explanations are good and true I'll add my $.02 in basic words.
Toggle turns cause the body to swing out from under the canopy (as related to where the wing loading should be for normal flight).
The second thing that happens is that since the wing isn't fully loaded it can't be fully controlled, and thus if you've done the maneuver too low you can't flare because there isn't enough air in the canopy.
---
When you do front riser turns the wing stays loaded (for the most part—I have to add this little waiver since it is possible to do riser turns that cause a short duration of de-loading and weightlessness). This means the canopy has a full amount of air in it and keeps its shape and potential energy and performance. Regardless, it's still possible to do front riser turns too low.
One last tip for riser turns: be sure to move the toggles slightly down on the steering lines a little (creating more distance between canopy tail and toggles) so that when you pull on the risers you’re not also pulling on the tail. This alleviates the buffeting. HOWEVER, doing this does mean that your flare point is LOWER. One must pull the toggles lower down in order to cause the same flare!!! Be sure to practice flaring at altitude and normal landings after adjusting the toggles!!! [You have now been warned and the only person who assumes the risk of doing anything mentioned herein is the person reading this information.]

[polarbear 1]

The understanding I have picked up is this - somebody correct me if I'm wrong:
Toggle hooks generally slow the canopy down, meaning it can't flare as efficiently. The benefit from a toggle hook mainly comes from swinging way out from under the canopy, then swinging back under in a pendulum effect. As the pilot swings back under, he will actually swing forward of the canopy, increasing the angle of attack, providing some extra lift during landing.
Since the advantage comes from the pendulum effect, you have to be swung out from under canopy to get the most benefit. Most toggle hooks I have seen have been with the pilot horizontal to the ground. While the pilot is swung out from under canopy, he can't flare. He has to wait until he is back under canopy. If he turned too low, he has few (if any) options. Since the toggle slowed the canopy, it actually has to speed back up to get over the head of the pilot, and to have flare energy...this takes time.
With a front riser turn, the canopy actually speeds up...it gains airspeed, which is translated to more lift during the landing. This airspeed can be gained with a moderate bank angle, meaning the pilot isn't swung out very far from under the canopy. If the turn is executed too low, the low bank angle makes it easier for the pilot to flare and save himself. Also, the canopy "recovers" after a riser turn by slowing down(remember, it gained airspeed during the turn). It is easier for the canopy to "slow down" after a riser turn then to "speed up" after a toggle turn. All this translates into more options for the pilot if he turned low and has to save himself.
Another issue is that the toggle hook generally has to be performed at a specific altitude. Too low, and the pilot crashes. Too high, and he pendulums under the canopy (planes out) above ground level, and then has to actually land with little airspeed. The front riser turn, however, can be contolled to a greater extenet, so the pilot can turn high and then lengthen the turn/dive to carry the speed all the way to landing altitude.
Note that front riser turns can still be aggresive enough that the pilot is horizontal to the canopy, so until he swings back under he can't flare. Also, some canopies are not stable on front risers, so using them can invite a canopy collapse. Both front risers and toggle turns have killed, so be careful. It is generally agreed (at least in the US) that front riser turns give more benefit with fewer risks.

[cobaltdan 0]

" The benefit from a toggle hook mainly comes from swinging way out from under the canopy, then swinging back under in a pendulum effect."
this is not a benefit, just the opposite.
you may pendulum very fast but the air speed over your wing is not very fast.
about the only "benefit" anyone could point out about a toggle hook is simply that to the spectators it looks impressive for the pilot to go over the top of the canopy that close to the ground.
personally i think maintaining a wider control range, wider safety margin and a longer swoop is more impressive as such i place the benefits with riser carves.
sincerely,
dan

[polarbear 1]

Quote

this is not a benefit, just the opposite. you may pendulum very fast but the air speed over your wing is not very fast.

.
I said the airspeed is low during a toggle turn.
As far as "benefit", well, the pendulum effect does cause the wing to have a higher angle of attack after the pilot swings through the equilibrium point and is ahead of his canopy. This higher angle of attack creates more lift without the added drag of flaring the canopy (as deeply). EVERY toggle hook I have ever seen has created a longer surf than a straight-in, natural speed approach...so there must be some benefit.
Having said that, I do agree they are very dangerous and are not as benefecial or "safe" as a front riser turn.

[jdhill 0]

"EVERY toggle hook I have ever seen has created a longer surf than a straight-in, natural speed approach...so there must be some benefit."
What about those that end up femur deep in the ground?
I agree with your next point that they, in my opinion, are not as safe... just wanted to emphasize the point... of course it can happen on a riser turn too...
I have a hard time even watching our resident toggle hookers at the DZ, they are just way too low for me. They make my skin crawl... so does anyone at the DZ hooking a Stiletto in general (not bashing the ST either... had two of them for 800 jumps, and did hook turns too)... I have just gotten used to the higher turns that I can make on the velocity and x-fire.
Isn't football the devil?
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Polarbear,
you will not find a single professional swooper performing a toggle hook in competition. Toggle hooks are not efficient and do not give nearly the surf as a clean riser turn. Those of us with any sense and experience stopped playing with toggles quite a while ago. As previously stated: they are dangerous and only serve to scare or impress whuffo bystanders.
Chuck Blue
Team Atair
My webpage HERE

[polarbear 1]

Yes, I know that, my point is just that there is some benefit from a correctly-performed toggle hook. Re-read my posts, no where have I said a toggle hook is as good or even close to a riser turn. In fact, I think I have said the opposite...TWICE...front riser turns give more benefit while being safer (now three times).

[polarbear 1]

Quote

What about those that end up femur deep in the ground?

Haven't seen any of those (fortunately)...the ones I have seen have all been nicely executed.
I will repeat, again, I HAVE NOT ADVOCATED DOING TOGGLE HOOKS. I HAVE EXPRESSELY STATED THEY ARE NOT AS SAFE, AND THAT THEY GIVE LESS BENEFIT, AND EXPLAINED WHY. I just pointed out that correctly done, they can improve the landing.

[crazy 0]

Quote

Re-read my posts, no where have I said a toggle hook is as good or even close to a riser turn. In fact, I think I have said the opposite...TWICE...front riser turns give more benefit while being safer (now three times).

An important "benefit" for fun jumpers is... fun. If your definition of fun is longer swoops, use front risers. If your definition of fun is risks and thrills, use the toggles. Pendulum effect and ground rush are much better with toggles.
About the safety aspect, "risers are safer than toggles" is a dangerous oversimplification.
Come

[freeflyguy 0]

I don't have much else to say, except, don't toggle hook.
It aint worth, it, too much margin for error. But, you all said that, so I will carry on...

[cobaltdan 0]

come:
nicely distilled.
dan

[polarbear 1]

Sigh...I don't see why my post is drawing the responses it is. I can tell this is a touchy subject.
I think my first post went above and beyond the call of duty as far as not being oversimplified. I tried to keep it as unbiased as possible and just give a detailed description of what I understood as facts; people had problems with me (apparently) not stating "just say no to toggle hooks". So, I present my personal opinion that using front risers is safer than toggles; I get accused of "oversimplifying".
If you want my interpretation of the physics involved in both cases, read my first post. If you want my personal opinion, both kinds of turns can kill or maim; front riser turns generate more speed, longer swoops, and generally leave the pilot a bigger window to save himself if he screws up. Don't toggle hook, it is not worth it.
There. I'm done with this thread now. My sincerest appologies to everyone involved for starting this whole mess.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Actually, there, everyone is done.
My webpage HERE